Blake Dyason — Brownie Points

Once aboard is What's Involved, and a special guest. And I've been looking forward to having a chat to this particular gentleman. Who is he? His name is Blake Dyson. Hello, Blake, how are you doing? - Hi, David, I'm Super. Thanks so much for this opportunity. - It's fantastic, and I mean, I got hold of you via, I think it was Sally, that Sally Acton that introduced us. And immediately that I sort of saw what to do and how you do, I was like, yep, no, definitely, you need to have a chat to Blake. So before we dive into what you do, let's go right back to the very beginning. Tell me a bit about Blake. I mean, give me some of your background, some of your history, and how you ended up where you are today. - Well, firstly, yes, I'm grateful that Sally introduced us, and her projects are super exciting. So I can't wait for all of that to come to life. But who am I? Well, I am a young, proud South African. I'm currently 33, and I was born in Cape Town, and my dad worked for one of the big mining companies. And so every couple of years, we moved around the country. So I've lived, I think, in five provinces. I went to seven schools, and I matriculated again back in Cape Town. So I had quite a interesting upbringing, and I think because I was always an outcast or on the outside of everything, like I'd always be the new kid in school, and then I'd eventually be scared to have real friends or friends forever, because I knew we'd be moving again.

Like I kind of just saw things differently and engaged differently. And then I left school, and I didn't really have the privilege of studying, and I don't know what I wanted to study. So the concept of taking out a long-term loan to pay for something that I didn't really know what it was didn't make sense to me. So I started working. And this is where the entrepreneur me came in is to survive. So started little businesses that failed and worked hard, and eventually found myself working, yeah, for a couple of companies, some good, some bad, and built up a network of, as a sales rep, as you do, of a lot of contacts in the business world. And indirectly through this, I got this passion for making a difference, like contributing, so supporting charities, and I ended up using my sport as this. And that's kind of, I ended up where I am now. And I think the big pivoting point was, in 2010, I just started trail running, and I didn't run very far. And I think I'd run about 25Ks of furthest in a race. And then I got a phone call from a professional athlete saying that she'd seen me in some trail runs. Would I like to join them on a fundraiser for a golf fighting breast cancer? So I joined, I volunteered immediately.

And a few days later, she sent her email saying, it's a hundred miler unassisted trail run. And I was like, well, what's a hundred miler? And that's when I found out that I'd signed up to run 160Ks kind of unassisted with a bunch of amazing athletes. So I kind of tried to back up, but didn't back out. And she just said, join and run as far as you can and pull out when you want. But yeah, I got there, that was in like November, and in the January of 2011, I joined these 44 crazy runners. We called it the boob run. The lady that was fighting cancer was Letty Hayes from Durban. Yeah, it was the most insane experience of my life, like running with these people that just had a passion to help and support someone. And sadly I got injured and had to pull out and I became a little bit depressed afterwards. And it was during this depression that Letty Hayes was on her death bed basically fighting cancer. And she told us or left this incredible message. She said, our greatest gift in life is our health, vitality and mobility. And like right then I was like, sheep is yum, like grumpy that I've lost my mobility for a little bit. And I realized how much of a gift this was. And so I basically quit nearly everything I did and committed my life while I've got health, vitality and mobility to contributing to the world in a better way.

And at first it was through using sport to raise money for charities. And then I realized that by just me raising money for charities, I can only support so many. And maybe I need to start investing in technology or better systems that we can support hundreds or thousands of charities and millions of people. And that's really where it all started. - That is unbelievable. And what a story. I mean, I'll be the first one to tell you, I think you nuts for running that far. If I think about a trail, I think about a leisurely meander through the African bush, not running 160 Ks, that is me, that is nuts. So is that your sort of primary focus is staying fit and healthy, but to give back to our country, to people? - 100%, it's definitely evolved at the beginning. Like when I was a bit younger, it was like fit and pushing my boundaries, like how far can I run? How far can I cycle? So I did like some amazing initiatives. I joined the Unagua'ja challenge, which is like the cycle of hope from Cape Town to Bourbon and 1,700 Ks. And then the next day running the comrades ultra marathon. And the whole thing was to raise money for charities, but also to stop over in these communities and just share this incredible story of hope and dedication and what you can achieve as a group believes in something.

And then I've tried running from different points and different mountains, over 100 Ks, all for different charities. And at that stage, maybe it might've been a bit about my ego, a bit about being young and just pushing those boundaries. But like now it's changed to like, to me it's about more about wellness, having a healthy body. I wanna know that any day, at any time, I'm able to be fit enough to explore and take part in activities that can touch lives and inspire others. But also the wellness is about like my mental wellness and the wellness of my environment, nature around me, my community, and the people around me. As I suppose mature and learn. Yeah, it's really about wellness and a greater impact, not just people, but also our planet. - You know what the amazing part is? And I'm now sitting on what I think I've done about 136 interviews since I've started the podcast and the radio show. And the trend that I've seen happening, and it's been accelerated, it's one of the positives that has come out to my mind, come out from this COVID pandemic, is that there is this shift, there's almost a shift in consciousness where people are trying to become more human. We spoke about Sally Acton earlier on and her whole project of learn to be a better human.

But it's definitely something that's coming to the fore. Another friend of mine, and I'm sure in your line of charitable work you would have heard of him, is the good things guy, Brent Lindeke. - Yes. - When Brent started out, people were pooping him and laughing. In fact, I was one of the first people to actually interview him on radio. And everybody, that was right then when there's the neck nominations where we're a thing and people were dying from alcohol poisoning and all sorts of things. And he started up the random acts of kindness. And since then, there's just been this groundswell of people kind of, I don't know, waking up. Oh yeah, can we say waking up? I think we can. And it's amazing to see. And more and more, I'm involved just on the outskirts with the Singularity U Summit that's happening this week. And I chatted to one of the delegates or one of the speakers there, Mimi Nickton. And her whole approach to everything is empathy. And I'm thinking empathy in the business world. And she's actually proven that you can turn companies around by becoming a more empathetic leader. So it's brilliant, the things that are happening around us. And I'm hoping that we can contribute in some small way with the show that I do as well.

But what interested me was two main things. 'Cause I know, I think you and I could talk for hours about all sorts of things. 'Cause we both have the kind of minds that run wild and free. I heard somebody a little while ago. Actually, they said that people like me, and dare I say people like you as well, are what we would call fringe dwellers. We kind of the hippie throwbacks that live on the edges and think about all the good and wonderful things that could happen in these. So I don't mind being called that, I really don't. Before we, we're gonna dive more into what you do when we come back. Because it's absolutely fascinating. My special guest is Blake Dyson. This is what's involved, we will be back in just a bit. And we're back with my special guest, Blake Dyson. So Blake, one of the things, I mean, you mentioned, you're sort of running and doing this trail running. So let's stay there before I get into what I think is probably gonna be the biggie of our discussion. So let's find out, you found something called Love Our Trails. So let's figure out what that's all about. - Well, so Love Our Trails really started because I'm this outdoor enthusiast, someone who loves trail running, mountain biking, just being in nature and exploring.

And over the part of like, this started in 2010, so 10 years ago, but about six years ago, I started seeing this massive increase in people taking part in outdoor activities. I remember when I took part in races, I would often be like almost on a podium and not because I'm fast, but just because there are only like 50 people at the start of a race. And now we get to races, I went to one, or cycle pass one this weekend, and there's like 500 people. And this is during like a COVID pandemic, like before COVID, they had a thousand or more. So it's definitely changed. But the challenge with this is that more and more people are going outdoors and they're running and walking on trails that potentially weren't designed for that many people, but also behaving in a way that maybe isn't in the best interest of that trail, either by littering, graffitiing, creating their own trails, going off trails. And so I started noticing a massive impact on my favorite trails. And it happened specifically on the day when I took my best friend from Joby, he had visited me in Cape Town, took him up my favorite trail, Cliff Corner Ridge in Cape Town. And it was one of those rare days, no wind, super hot and clear, clear skies.

And I remember just bragging to him, like how lucky I am to basically run from my house up the mountain and just have this beauty. And then we decided we're gonna be like good friends catching up and we need to go get a beer down in town. So we rushed down the quickest route we could, which happened to be Cladaclip Gorge, the very popular trail. And I should have known better. It was obviously the most beautiful day and mid summer. And it was packed with tourists and local people hiking up. And as we made our way through these people, we got to this rock halfway down. And I had to get through the people and I looked down and I just saw litter and fruit peels and leftover food and graffiti all over this rock. And it just hit me, I was so embarrassed. I was like, what the hell have we done? What have we done to nature? What have we done to this beauty? And then as I kept walking past that, I couldn't unsee all the litter. I realized the litter's there, it's everywhere. By the time I got to the bottom, I was like, what am I gonna do? I started emailing people, land managers and environmental organizations just to see who's cleaning up, what are we doing? And I got very little feedback.

And so I decided to host a cleanup with my trail running friends and we did. And we had over a hundred people join the first cleanup of which we picked up, I think it was just over 50 bags, full black bags of litter on a 4K trail. And the feedback from that was incredible. People sharing what they learned, people showing their anger to it, it was just crazy. And I ended up being in quite a few meetings afterwards or invited to a few meetings. And I quickly realized that this isn't a once off and that the litter's not gonna stop. And the only way to fix this is through education. And so I then joined global organizations, was very lucky to travel overseas to do some work with learning about this. And then I bought this environmental organization called Lava Trails, which our main aim is that we wanna get people to engage with nature. So we believe we can only protect nature or natural environments by creating venue to it and venues created by experience. So we want people to experience nature and venue it, but while they're experiencing it, we want them to experience it in a way that protects nature and protects their environments, other trail users as well. So we've bought a trail ethics document that's on our website.

We host events, we do talks, we go on radio shows and we just try and build this underlying culture and stewardship of what it means to protect our environment. And to me, I use the word trails mainly because trails are our paths that connect us to the environment, connect us to other people, connect us to communities. And also the trails we leave behind us. And we have an opportunity to leave a positive trail. And that's really what it's about. And it's been a fun five going on six year journey. And we've had some amazing successes. And currently, I think we measure our litter picking up on just two trails that we do regular big cleanups, which cover just sort of 10 kilometers in total. And I think out of 18 cleanups, we picked up just over two tons of litter. So it just shows you that the scale of what's actually happening on these trails. - That's insane because you would think that people that went out into nature to enjoy nature would be a bit more conscious about stuff like that. Maybe they're not. - Well, I think like, so a lot of it's very interesting. So a lot of it, like, and I've done a lot of thinking and research and questions is like, it's like people often like the first time you go on like this trail, you don't realize that other people they walk this trail every week or that people have been walking this trail for 130 years before you.

Like at that moment, you're the only person conquering this trail and you're conquered it. And something in us that has gone on for history wants to leave our mark. So we'll write our name on a rock, or we'll pile rocks on top and take a picture. Like, and at that time, we're not really being, we're not making, like in our minds, we're not doing any damage, but we're very unconscious to everything else around us. And then from the litter side, the world faces a litter problem. And specifically in South Africa, we have like highly privileged kids that have never had to take rubbish out in their life and have no idea how the waste system works. They don't know what's recyclable, what's biodegradable, and then we have people on the other spectrum which grew up in these communities where government hasn't provided a waste system. So they only know certain things. And so I like to believe the best in people. And I don't think people litter intentionally to litter. I think they litter just from a lack of real understanding. And you chat about empathy and that. And part of the work we do is like, how do we build empathy for our trails, for our environments? Like, once we can feel what the importance of that environment is and what the environment feels, like how that ecosystem works, then we'll start treating it completely differently.

- That makes sense because I suppose it is. It's an education process. Now, Blake, if people are interested, I mean, people, fortunately, the way that the show is aired, it's both podcast and on radio. So we get people from all over the country and worldwide, in fact, that actually listen to the show. Where would we go if we're keen on this kind of thing or keen on connecting and finding like-minded people? Is there a website? - Yes, 100%. So there's different, for different communities, different ways to get involved. Firstly, everything you can go to the Labo Trails website and you can see all the everything there. We have our events on there. We have our ethics on there that you can download. And then our social media is really active, mainly Facebook and Instagram, which is also just Labo Trails. And that, but then for other groups like conservation parks, private land and school groups, they welcome to go on the website and just contact me directly. And I kind of do free consulting on planning with them. So for instance, we're working with school groups now on making hiking and circular economy and environmental education part of the education system. And we've had amazing successes from it.

And then also land owners about working with them on introducing them to the right people to relook at the way we build trails that builds inclusion, access, sustainability to our environment rather than just a recreational trail. And so people can contact me and ask for help. And I'm very open to it. - All right, now what is the website address? - laboutrails.com - laboutrails, all one word.com, laboutrails.com. Fantastic, my special guest, Blake Dyson will be back with more. And I believe something that's absolutely fascinating. We'll tell you about that when I come back. This is what's involved. And we're back on what's involved with my special guest, Blake Dyson. Before the break, I promise that we're gonna talk about something which I think is absolutely fascinating. I haven't entirely gotten my head around it yet but you're gonna help me with that. And that's something that you're a co-founder of and it's called Brownie points. Now I know that in the old days that was, oh, if you do something good, you're scoring some brownie points. So is there a tie-in? - That's exactly it. Brownie points is such a South African term and we're a South African company. Yeah, that the name seems right and it's really about empowering good deeds and Brownie points is a way of recognizing it.

So it does really tie in. But it all started and my co-founder and the CEO Pascale, she founded the business and the name originally about I think it's now going on seven years ago, maybe in a bit more. And I was working in a different space and doing a lot of, in the NPO space and doing a lot of research on bringing technology into the country to make it easier for people to find NPOs but also to hold them more accountable, to understand where our money goes, what they need. And I was very narrow-minded at the time but I'd done quite a bit of research and eventually Pascale and I partnered and we about, I think it's now four years, maybe a bit more, no, about four years, we officially launched the, or the third launch but we officially launched Brownie points as we know it today. And what it is, it's really a dashboard. It's a website that connects people and companies to good deeds, to NPOs and social impact activities that are happening where we can help. And not just financially but either through skilled volunteering, unskilled volunteering, product donation or even just sharing a sort of message like a pledge with your network. And so the more we've learned about this, the more amazing it's been because we've also realized like, well, one is that there's 160,000 NPOs in South Africa of which they employ a large number, they estimate close on the same number of people as our corporate sector.

So this market is vital to the success of this country. And that excludes the millions of people that and the conservation and everything else that this industry or this sector actually supports. So for us, the foundation is understanding the importance of that and how do we connect people to it and bring it close to home. Once you realize that there are so many NPOs, we're like within five kilometers of where anyone lives, there must be a handful of NPOs that you can support. And every single person has some form of privilege, their access to contacts, their money, be at a product, be at time, whatever that small little privileges we have, there's an NPO within your reach that could probably do with a little bit of help. And so that's really what we do. And then we've grown that now into four businesses as well where we have a dashboard for businesses. So we have partners like Grand Richmond Bank or ShopRite Group. And what we do is like ShopRite Group, I think have 160,000 staff, and we're able to allow them to load all their staff on it who are based around the country. And they can set targets and goals and track all their staff volunteering and giving as well as their own CSI initiative.

So it automates the Section 18A data, their BE staff, their auditing and that, and it saves them loads of time, but it also gives all those NPOs around the country access to be able to connect with corporates. And so this is really what we're doing. We kind of like this little middleman hub that's just connecting good people and good businesses with the grassroots level spaces that need that love and help. - See, this is, and I've said this before on this show, this is one of those ideas when you hear it and you see that it's been put into action, you want to slap yourself upside the head and go, why didn't I think of it? Because it's essentially a simple solution, but such an elegant solution. - 100% is simple from the outside. Technology to build it has taken us about seven years because of how, and why we weren't able to bring technology from overseas yet to do it is because of how challenging and different South African needs are and how we measure things. And so yeah, so it's been interesting. And then obviously like you're talking earlier about like with COVID now and how people are becoming more conscious in that, like the way we measure things has had to change by the week and how intrinsic and extrinsic values are changing.

Like people used to do good deeds to get their Section 18A certificate or their BE points. And now staff and companies are saying, I will only work for a company that's contributing to my community. And so like, so now companies are forced to show this information. It needs to be organic and it needs to be real. So it's all changed and trying to stay up to date with that. So it started as a simple idea and it's become very technical, but the measurables are beautiful and rewarding. - I can only imagine as you were talking about this, the technical side of it, but for the end user, we sort of see the simplicity and elegance of the idea. Just to make it a little more clear about what you guys do. Give me an example of somebody, would somebody that runs an NPO, maybe it's a soup kitchen, for example, would they then post on this platform? How does it work? - Okay, so we have, so I'm gonna give you a couple of examples, but I'll first share what the different users are. So we have an NPO, which is a user. So they would, for instance, I'll help run an orphanage called Malachar Case of Safety. And so Audrey runs Malachar or owns Malachar Place of Safety, would say, we really need nappies or we really need baby food and that.

So she should just go on Naki Maker Facebook event, she'd say, put her name in, load us off, and then say, Malachar Place of Safety, looking for food, donation this date, drop off time, these times, and a quick brief and that. And then it goes on, and then she can share it on social media, on email, on WhatsApp, however she wishes to share it. What that dashboard then allows her to do is that it helps her track who's interested. And that in the background, what we do is say now, David, you say, oh, this is interesting, I definitely am happy to contribute a bag of nappies. You can click on it and say, I commit to giving a bag of nappies. Audrey will get a message immediately. You'll also get a message immediately. And when you need to deliver, you'll get an automated reminder message. So what we've done is we've understood that there's a massive dropout of people not delivering on their promises. And part of this is because they forget that life is busy, but also they feel anxious or they don't understand what their contribution is contributing to because there's no target or measurable. And so because all of this is transparent and you can see how it's rolling out and what the needs are, we see a much bigger engagement and delivery.

So from the NPO, Audrey would, or Malika, place of safety, would set that target of 10 bags of nappies and David's committed one. And then David shares this on his social media or to his friends, who will then further potentially commit and you'll see this number organically grow. So that's the NPO side. And this can happen for soup kitchens looking for food or a nut shelter looking for blanket donations or even someone looking for money donations. We've also partnered with Ozur who we have an agreement with that. There's no fees attached to any donations. So no bank charges or anything. So every single thing goes directly to those NPOs, which is amazing. I think it's the only platform in the country that does that. And then from a user side, so say now, David, you're a user and you are walking down the road and you're like, oh, this litter, yeah, we should pick it up. You can literally just create this campaign saying, I'd love my community to join me on the litter cleanup in the river, yeah. And you say, Pretoria River cleanup as your name. You give a date, Tom and that. And you can say, we're looking for 25 volunteers to help us on the day. And then in that brief, you can say what they must bring and where they must meet.

And then everyone that signs up gets sent a reminder on the day of it. At the end, it sends another check-in reminder saying, what was your experience? Send us pictures. And you can start collecting that information so that you can do a thank you post. You can thank them, whatever you need to do, or you can share it with the newspaper. So as a user, you don't have to be a registered NPO. You can just create good causes and build your own community to make impact. And then from a school or community like church side, is schools are now able to allow their kids to take part in initiatives and community while having a watchful eye on. So kids can either say, I wanna come and sell cupcakes at school and all that money is going to this charity. And they can just create that on the platform and it's trackable and people can basically purchase it through the platform. But it allows a teacher or headmaster to overlook this and make sure that the kids are safe, that the money or the donations are going to it is, and that falls in line with what that school community believes in. Obviously, some schools wouldn't want their kids to get involved in political things or whatever they are. So they can manage that.

And then from the corporate side, and this is where the mass impact happens, is now companies are not only able to manage their donations to their flagship NPOs, which they give money to, but now they can even allow their staff to create their own campaign, support their own community staff and set targets. So for instance, let's take Corbicon, which is a smallish business in Cape Town that recently did a Mandela Day with us. And so they are like, okay, we want our staff to take part in things. They set, I think, five things. It was like, support a soup kitchen, collect blankets for the night haven and a couple of others. And then they allowed their staff to create their own causes. So say now there's an individual that already looks after a soccer club or soccer team, underprivileged soccer team, and they're looking for socks. They could create their own cause and do their own fundraiser. They allowed the company to say, we want to do this. We're offering everyone time of work for these things. We can measure it. And we're willing to match fund or set rewards for certain things. So if the company, if the staff raised 4,000 round for the socks, the company will match the 4,000 round, for instance.

So they're able to do all these things. And at the end of the day, they can pull a report and they can share it on social media. A great example of what we did two years ago is we partnered with ShopRite Checkers to host Africa's biggest cleanup. And so through this is firstly, we sent out a media release basically to all the staff and to their supply chains and encouraged everyone or anyone that wanted to to host their own cleanup. And then off that then we invited people to join these cleanups. I think we had 518 cleanups across 12 African countries. And we received feedback from I think 30,000 volunteers, all happening in one day. And so this is a power of technology and doing good deeds. And off that, if I'm not mistaken, I don't know a lot about this, but I know that they increased their social media marketing, organic marketing, by I think like 400% or something over that period just through their staff and people taking part in community-based good deeds. So this is kind of what this technology allows, is it allows everything to be measurable to a point and to build community and hold accountability and just have this watchful eye over people just like contributing in like a meaningful measurable way.

I think it's absolutely fantastic. We're sort of coming up towards the end of the show now. So when we come back, we'll be wrapping it up. This is what's involved. Good to have you along with us. My special guest is Blake Dyson. We'll be back in just a bit. And we're back, what's involved it is. My guest is Blake Dyson. Wrapping it up, as I said, Blake, so brownie points, you don't get actual points in it. The brownie points are, it's symbolic of you sort of giving yourself a pat on the back and feeling good for making a difference. - Well, so when we started, we actually had like this whole point system and people could win rewards and that. It didn't quite work out. And so we pivoted in that. So now what happens is companies set their own rewards for their staff. So some companies set time off work, some give money, some pay for medical aid, whatever it is. So if people contribute a certain amount, companies will reward them. On the other side is we have things like recently we had a cleanup and Vida E sponsored coffees for anyone that took part and uploaded a picture. So the rewards are done through collaborative spaces with companies and people and communities with shared interests.

I'm off to the States next year, July, where we looking at these things around gifting economy and while I'm going with the Mandela Washington fellowship, so I selected to join that and working with 20 campuses there in that we're looking at how we give access to basic human rights through a gamified platform. And so hopefully in the near future, brownie points could be a virtual currency that people can behave in a certain way contributing positively to the community while getting access to education and healthcare and food and housing and safety. And that's really our ultimate dream is to support some form of a circular, circular ward of community and access to what we believe are human rights. - You know, it's so strange because one of the things that I've always said to people about South Africa and Africa in general is this the spirit of kindness and caring that we have. Yes, you know, the world might be going to hell in a hand basket, the government's doing whatever the government does, but essentially we as people are good people and particularly in South Africa. You know, we always hear the bad news about everything that's happening, but I've come across so many, so many good stories and where people genuinely do care and they want to give back.

And I think what you're saying here though, because this is what I've heard over this COVID period is, it's all good and well us donating whatever it is that we can donate, but how do we know where it's going to? How do we know what it's being used for? And you answering that question with value points because now you can see where your contribution is going to, and you can also choose where you would like to help. So I could, if I understand quickly, I could log on as an individual and go, okay, where can I help in my area? What can I do? And I think that's fantastic. So now-- - That is exactly it. - Good. If a radio presenter can get it, anybody can get it. You know, normally at this time of our interview as we're wrapping up, I would say to my guests, so what's next? But I mean, I don't know if I should ask of you because it sounds like your plate is full, but then again, on the other hand, just getting to know you a little bit, I'm almost guaranteed there is a next to you. So for Blake-- - There definitely is. - What are the next? Give me some ideas of what we can look forward to. - So from my next with Brownie points is, I'm very fortunate to be selected as one of the under 35 future leaders for the Mandela Washington Fellowship, which has taken me five years to get.

And I'll spend six weeks in the States working with 20 different campuses on building, on getting support and building a leadership education, or they building a leadership education program to help me find the solutions we need to be able to take Brownie points to that next step. And that next step is to understand how we give people access to those human rights, to healthcare, food, data, education, and how Brownie points can measure and track this and what this currency looks like. So if it's a gift in currency, or if it's a parallel currency to our capitalist current economy, like what is that and looking at it. So that's really like the really big next step for me that I'm really excited about. The other thing with Lava Trails really is trying to get a white paper published on making hiking and environmental education part of our schooling curriculum. Because I believe it will, it is the future and it's vital to the success of our future. - Fantastic stuff. Black people that are now wanting to get involved with Brownie points, what is the way that they say for them? - So it's browniepoints.africa. Our contact details are on there and they can please contact us. We'd love to, we haven't got all the solutions and we are an amazing young team looking to be challenged and finding new solutions to these crazy times that we're in and hopefully making a really meaningful difference with collaboration.

- Wonderful stuff. Well, Blake, from my side, all I can say is I think you guys are doing an amazing job and well done. I wish you all the very, very best. The web address again is browniepoints, one word, browniepoints.africa. My special guest, Blake Dyson, thank you again and all the best. We really wish you all. - Thank you so much. - There we go. That was my special guest, Blake Dyson. Go check it out, browniepoints.africa. It's a fantastic concept and you can give back as well. And if you're an MPO, go and check it out. You could also then post some of your stuff there. This has been What's Involved. Thank you for listening.