Brett Dawson — Entrepreneur, Investor, Businessman, Fountain Of Knowledge

Once more it is, what's involved. So good to have you along with us. Special guest today, we're going to be chatting, and we're going to be chatting about a rather interesting website that I came across and finding out what it is, why it is, how it is, who is my guest, he is Brett Dawson. Hello, Brett, welcome. - Hello, David, it's such a pleasure to be with you this afternoon. - Yeah, absolutely great to talk to you. I've been looking forward to this one, but I like with all of my guests to get a bit of a background, a bit of history about them. So, tell me a little bit about yourself, your history, born, bred, wed, raised, what did you do, studies, all of those things. It's been a little bit better. - It was David, I was born here in Johannesburg, out in the southern suburbs. And I just went to a normal government school there and left that, had to do, that was staged two years military. During that period, I realized I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, what I wanted to study at that time. And my dad was quite keen on me becoming a geologist, who was mining, I think a big and massive industry at that time, please, but it was really a powerful one. And I knew I didn't want to do that, but wasn't sure what I wanted to do.

And during the stint in the conscription, I made some total accountants and realized that this would be a fantastic thing just to set a base and then a foundation layer, if you like, of enabling me to learn a lot of stuff. And hopefully once that was done, enabling me to open doors and to progress through some form of career. So I did the CA after that, and I did the CA for a couple of years, and it requires, I mean, four years, and then went into articles at KPMG. This was actually called Alex Aiken and Gorton in those days, but became KPMG and did two years mainstream articles. Well, I learned a lot of stuff. I mean, I think it was fantastic. I met so many youngsters today. So, you know, what a pain after your articles. And I said, I think that's just the wrong approach. You never again, gonna be able to be exposed to so many different businesses, so many different business models and different industries, some that are successful, some that aren't. And if you go in there with the right attitude, you can learn so much, so much. You know, so I spent two years just doing sort of mainstream auditing, and then they decided to open up a corporate finance division. So we're going back a long way, yeah?

Corporate finance got off a standard thing these days, but they were opening a corporate finance division. So I put up my hand and then I thought, well, that would be so cool to get involved in through the client base of these big auditing firms. I mean, what a fantastic base of clients. I'd be able to go and hopefully, you know, work on putting corporate finance deals together where companies would buy each other and sell and doing pretty important strategic stuff. So we went into corporate finance for two years there. And then as approached by one of my clients, it was actually Angla Wall at those stage, the big mining house and industrial conglomerates in South Africa, and approached me to join and head up their corporate finance and strategic planning. So I thought it would be quite a cool step to go in a very, quite a senior position in Angla Wall and be able to look at both industrial stuff and mining. You know, I really enjoyed the period there. I must have done one or two good things 'cause I was then asked to go and become the CFO of national brands. And it was all about fast-moving consumer goods. I learned all about biscuits and tea and coffee and cosmetics and what a fantastic learning experience there.

And during that period, I saw the sanctions against South Africa. This was pre, sort of pre-94, pre-election. I saw that I thought sanctions would come down. I thought what a fantastic opportunity for me to try and step back as CFO, step down, but rather go and try and help them all the export business from South Africa. Most of our products, 98% of our business was in South Africa. Fantastic brands like Bakers Biscuits and Pieds and Romany Creams and Five Roses, all these household brands. But they were all locked, you know, in South Africa because of the sanctions era. So as I saw that coming down, I thought what a fantastic opportunity. Let me go and try and work on expanding the business outside of South Africa for national brands. So really became a glorified, you know, put together a team and we went and tried to sell biscuits and tea and coffee all over Africa and then into mainly to Southeast Asia. And really that was going very nicely. I spent a couple of years doing that, expanding that business. And while I was doing that, got a call unsolicited from Dimension Data and asking me to, one of their directors asked me to come in for a meeting. And that stage I kind of obviously heard of Dimension Data.

They were just becoming, you know, caught a darling of the stock exchange that was in their real boom period. And they were looking for somebody with a pretty strong commercial background, but somebody who was, they thought would hopefully be entrepreneurial to take Dimension Data into their first pure services play and build this services business called the Virtual Private Network, which today is a household name, but in those days we had to go and create a whole new industry. And so I thought that would be fantastic. And so I leapt across and went in as a very small team to start this business. It's all about networking. It was in the early days of helping customers just frankly go online and enable their, your automatic tele-machines to talk to each other and to head office and really network up businesses. And that as a startup, we went well and we merged that over time with another business, which is also a household name now in South African corporate called Internet Solutions. And I went across, we merged the business and I became joint CEO of Internet Solutions. And that was really just a fantastic time to try and build an industry from scratch, which is today the internet.

So today all that stuff, but we were involved in the first really building first foray into the internet and all of that became over time. So this was in the, you know, in the 1990s and late 1990s. I did that for a while running internet solutions together Derek and we, you know, we're having a fantastic time growing and learning there when I mentioned data then asked me to go across to the US. They'd made a lot of acquisitions in America, a half a dozen or so, and they needed somebody to go across, represent dimension data and try and bring this thing together. He's off a dozen disparate businesses all over the US, different industries. And as I thought that would be a fantastic challenge to learn how business is done in America and all the experience there, no sooner accepted the job and bought a house. And the very next week we had the infamous 9/11. So I had to scratch my head for a long time and say, well, this could be a big change, but we decided to do it. And we went across to the US, we located the whole family. And because of 9/11, the businesses that we were involved in in America took a real strain. And so for the period I was in the US, it was a learning experience of the opposite kind.

I'd always been in gross business and I've learned to love growing businesses and how exciting and stressful, but exciting that is. And in the US, we were in awful trouble. We're losing a lot of money. Our business models were under a dramatic threat. And so we were losing a lot of money. And so we had to go in and do huge reductions in workforce, cut the heck of our businesses back to what could hopefully be profitable businesses, terminate leases, close down branches, offices, businesses, get rid of a whole lot of people. And that was the toughest thing I ever have to do in my career was having to let a lot of people go, people who had done nothing wrong. It's just the business wasn't there. So we had to cut it back dramatically. So I must have done,

I mentioned that I must've been happy with what I did there because after a year doing that and turning that business around, they then offered me the chief operating officer role back in South Africa. And clearly a big step up from where I was in the organization in America. So I accepted the chief operating officer role. And then within a year, they appointed me as CEO of Dimension Data Worldwide, the group, which I then went on and ran, drove the turnaround 'cause the group was in dire financial condition when I took that job. And we managed to successfully turn that around and ran Dimension Data through a profitable growth and a massive expansion strategy over those 12 years. We were able to more than triple the business and increase the share price about seven times. And then I thought that was enough. So ran DD for 12 years and had a fantastic time and loved working with so many fantastic people around the world and that. And then three years ago, I stepped out from Dimension Data and I was thinking about what's next and clearly the requirement was never gonna be an option. So I wanted to go and do something which was made an impact, something that would be fun, but where can you make an impact but not be full-time employee?

I didn't wanna go back into a big corporate. And I mentioned that I had 30,000 people in 60 countries and all kinds of commitments around that. So I wanted to go into somewhere where I could still make an impact but get materially involved in the business but not having to work full-time. So what I decided to do was form my own very small private equity business. And we call that Campan, which is the name of a leopard. That's our family. We really wanted to show us South African roots in that. And we chose an animal that we loved dearly as a family and started this private equity business where we invest today in small startup businesses. About half of those, a little bit more than half in South Africa, but quite a few in the UK and headquartered in the UK and in Australia. And businesses that we think can make or trying to fundamentally transform the industry or transform a process or just change a business model. I don't wanna just invest in, businesses are just already good businesses and take them a couple of inches forward. No, we're looking for businesses that can transform a process. So we really wanna be at that entrepreneurial, creative front end of change. So try to do, if you like, I mean, use the analogy, although my businesses are much smaller, but to do what Airbnb did for the hotel industry or what Uber has done for the taxi industry completely, revolutionary stuff.

So that's what we're trying to do, obviously in a much smaller scale. And I'm involved in about, in total, I guess about 14 of these projects. Some of them doing exceptionally well and some of them doing exceptionally poorly and a whole lot somewhere in between because that's the nature of the game. Where we play, you'd expect to have one or two out of 10 absolute winners. You'd expect three out of 10 to fail. And then you expect to build, five or six reasonable businesses that do okay in the fullness of time. So the moment fully engaged in those 12, 14 kind of projects, having a lot of fun investing, it's been trying to nurse them through these COVID times. And other than that, I also went into only one other big corporate and that's a shareholder and investor in Altron Group, which I went in with the private equity group, PCP, also when they did their investment in Altron, I went in as they got to help them with the strategy on Altron in South Africa. So I think they have a long-winded answer, but if you wanted all the bits and bobs, I think that's pretty much it. - Well, it certainly is quite a bit, Breit. I think you've certainly had a varied and colorful career and to sort of look at your background from the CA perspective and where you are now, I think it's certainly been an exciting journey and really given you some great skills there.

When we come back, I'd like to talk about one of those businesses that you are currently involved in, something called Brand Hub. So we'll chat about that when we come back. My special guest is Brett Dawson. He is the founder of a company called Campan. So we'll talk more about that as well. It is what's involved back in just a bit. And we're back, what's involved it is. My special guest is Brett Dawson. So Brett, along the line, you came across something called Brand Hub. Talk to me about Brand Hub because when I first heard about you and about Brand Hub and what the guys were doing there, I thought, "You know, this is a pretty damn clever idea." So talk me through it. - I had approached him a couple of years ago

as one does in this kind of space we're playing in and approached by Rob Anderson, the founder of Brand Hub in those days. It was more of an idea business, I guess. I really liked the concept. What the dream of Brand Hub is to be an online offering

where one thinks of online trading, so an electronic commerce type platform as one would think about like say an Amazon where you buy stuff online ultimately, but with a very different business model. The intent here is that we encourage our customers to become loyal to the site and we reward them for the contribution to the site. We looked at the other online players, you typically as a customer, you will get some kind of benefits, but typically the advertising spend and the marketing is paid by an online player, online store, into somebody like Google Ads or that type of thing, pay money for them to drive traffic to your site. We think so much money is getting paid by these sites to Google, for example, and all these different search engines, and what if we were to repurpose that investment instead of paying it to just bring people to the site, actually reward people for coming to your site in the first place and for contributing to the site. So the model is quite different in that if you come to a brand up site and you contribute something, so you do a review of whatever your board says to say you buy, there's a lot of electronic products on the site, so let's say you buy a watch, a Garmin watch, and then you can do an unboxing video, you do a review of the thing, you can contribute little videos on how it works, you can do surveys, and every time you're contributing content, you basically get rewarded by our site, with me bucks, it's actually currency, and then when you want to buy your next item through the site, you'll get that as a credit against your purchase, so it rewards you financially and directly for contributing to the site, it rewards you for bringing other friends to the site.

So it's kind of a reward system, but through the site, as you contribute your intellectual capital, rather than your cash. So there's a number of other aspects to start this thing, also add value so you, we highly encourage people to do gifting, and you can, we have a chippy and a certain amount of monies that you can buy a more expensive gift for your friend, and that type of thing, so in a nutshell, it's an electronic commerce offering, where we strongly run your brand, and we also then offer this as a white label service, and we are running other folks electronic commerce engines, so as the world moves to more and more online, and it has been one of the, I guess the benefits of the terrible COVID situation, is there's companies and businesses trying to be more online, brand up can also offer you a white label service, so we can run your whole entire electronic commerce offering as a white label service for you, and you don't have to worry about any of this stuff of how do you connect suppliers, how do you do your pricing, how do you do your catalogs, how do you publish your different brochures, how do you offer specials, the supply chain, the logistics, so you can imagine as a brand or as a store, if you could come to one company that can do all that for you, then that's what brand up can do as well, so kind of a twin approach to the market, one is directly through brand up, and then indirectly we do the exact same solution for on an outsourced kind of electronic commerce platform for you.

- Absolutely fascinating what you guys are doing in the way that you've thought about this, and I can see where, for example, for like the consumer, this would be a good thing, how would it benefit the brands though? Because, you know-- - Well, the brand, you know-- - Sorry, I'm just trying to think this through in my head, but I'm gonna need some help here, because the brands are obviously, you know, there is a monetary value to their product, so how's it working for them and how are they finding it? - Well, so for the brand, at the moment the brand, if you were a brand or running a brand, if you were marketing director and you had a brand, which was whatever it is, you know, typically today you pay, you'd go to a trading platform and you would pay them to list your products or incentivize them to list your products, and you would also then be paying folks to the search engines, like I mentioned in Google, you'd be paying these e-commerce, all these e-commerce engines, you actually paying them per search word and stuff like that so that you can create interest in your product on our site, so you're actually paying for all that stuff. Now, if you come to brand owner, we all send you that same brand owner, yes, pay something, but don't pay it just for advertising, actually pay the contribution you would pay anyway, rather give that as a credit or the benefit to your customer who does something for you, so, you know, your customer who buys your product and reviews it and then there's something good to say about it, well, you basically giving him bucks so that he can come back to the site and buy somebody else's product, so for the brand is creating customer loyalty, I think, you know, 10 times better than if you were simply spending the money on advertising, you'd rather spend the money on the customer, so customer comes, looks at your brand, buys the brand, you give him basically, you give him a credit against his future purchases, you know, we think that that for the brand is zero cost game compared to what he's paying anyway today and he's giving the credit directly to his customer, fantastic, you know, and the customer is gonna actually perceive that as value, so you, you know, I reviewed Watch brand ABC and they basically gave me, you know, money to come buy my next product with them and so, oh, that's pretty cool, that reward, all it took was some of my effort and energy, so we think that anybody who takes the time to review a brand or do a little video or answer survey, any customer is doing that, you know, he's gonna be, you know, without a doubt, you know, linking himself emotionally, which is the most important thing, and logically linking himself and his awareness to that brand, so we think it will build, and we know, we're already seeing the results, it will build far better, deeper, more meaningful brand loyalty for the brand.

- I would agree with you because just thinking this through, you know, it's, you're sort of showing your support for the brand, you're being loyal to the brand, and yeah, for various brands, this is gonna be a massive big thing. What sort of is the size of a brand that you would take there? I mean, could somebody who had a smaller brand that was starting out, could they offer some products or services? - Yeah, absolutely. I don't think, actually, you caught me on that one, is there a minimum? I frankly don't know, but I don't think it is, you know, if I look at, I just know the numbers that are going through the platform, some of the brands are quite small, so, you know, the ones, we really had success with some newer stuff, like a 3D printing, they were really flying, and so we represent a couple of brands there, so they were battling for an outlet. Where do they go? And they'll get lost on some of the bigger platforms, so, you know, we had a huge take up on 3D printing there, I mean, laptops, computers, so we are, and then sending lots of small electronic goods moving into fitness, and we're opening up new spaces, so, you know, as we see other verticals that we think are not that well served, things like outdoor, you know, a lot of sports stuff, outdoor gear, quite a few industries that actually on electronic platforms are actually not that well represented anyway, so we have two or three new specialist industries that we are looking to open up and go on into where platforms are not that great out there anyway today.

So, I think the scope is quite broad for smaller brands to come on board and hopefully accelerate very fast. I mean, as you may know from that PR article we put out, I mean, we've had some brands come along and enjoy 1,000% growth in revenue in six months kind of stuff, so we have seen some really good traction. - I think it's, like I said, I'm blown away by the concept of this, and I was just thinking to myself now, you know, if you guys had had a crystal ball and been able to see into the future, you would have stocked up or brands would have come flocking to you with things like cameras and, you know, your USB cameras and microphones, 'cause at the moment I think everybody in their dog has now had to go online and do virtual meetings, et cetera, et cetera, and I know when I was looking for some audio stuff and some webcams a little while ago, it was just not a happy thing. - Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, unfortunately authorities chose to stop electronic trading initially. I mean, if you can, you know, just shudder to think that the thought process is going on there, but once we were allowed to trade, yes, things like your computer, your networking, your phones, you know, connecting the home

was absolutely huge. I mean, we had stocked up or we tried and we did get additional stock in those kind of electronic lines, a lot of it, and yeah, we still badly into, we absolutely have serviced all that initial demand, but still today that is running very hard. So, you know, that kind of connecting up the home office and all the different elements that go along with it has been a really been a big boon for us, yeah. - I think it's wonderful stuff. We are chatting to my special guest, Brett Dawson, and we're talking about Brandhub. I want to get a bit more into what Brett does as well. So when we come back, we'll talk a little bit more about that. This is what's involved, we'll be back just after this. And we're back, my special guest is Brett Dawson. He has a private equity company called Campan. Brett, just take me back to Campan. Was that a leopard that you got to know or another name, or how did that work? - Yeah, when I was looking to start this business, I mean, I wanted to, you know, I wanted to make an impact and I wanted to, also, if you look at a, you know, what do you call something and you have a blank piece of paper, it's quite nice. (Brett laughs) And I thought that if I look at what I want to do, then, and I'm passionate, South African wildlife love it.

And I thought, you know, the thing that it most symbolizes what I want to do here is actually the leopard. 'Cause the leopard, if you take him into business context and say, well, how do you, you know, business context, then I think, you know, that's the animal that probably represents me and for my values more than most other animals. So a leopard, you know, what I like about, just gets the job done, you know, just gets stopped, no shouting and screaming and roaring and be eating of the chest, just quietly gets the job done, gets the job done with a minimum of fuss, only kills what it needs to eat, you know, typically hunts for itself and doesn't scavenge, you know. So when you look at that animal, it just to me has the kind of values that mostly I want to see in business. I want to see things that make an impact, but it's the least, you know, kind of ecological footprint. You know, we don't shout and scream, but what we do, we just quietly make our plan and get the job done. And hopefully get it done, you know, very, very effectively with the least amount of fuss and hassle. So I like the values of the leopard and, you know, only gets seen when it, typically when it wants to get seen, doesn't shout and scream, somewhat below the radar.

And it's more about getting the job done than shouting and screaming about the razzmatazz. We're not a big razzmatazz business. I've never believed in the razzmatazz leader. I think those are, you know, make a lot of noise, but don't actually achieve a whole lot. So we are just like the leopard and that's why we chose that, you know, kind of three years ago. - Wonderful stuff. So the name is, what, is it a combination of something? Because I know, I was trying to think, is that the taxonomic name for a leopard? But that is a panthera partis, isn't it? - Sorry, it was a name of an actual leopard we followed. It was a male leopard in the Londolosie-Sobby Sands area, which we followed for years. And he was just the dominant male, which our family, you know, had two young kids at that stage, or often all we just came to love, you know. - I was just talking about that. I was actually, have been fortunate enough to spend some time with the gentleman by the name of Lex Hess, whose book, "The Leopards of Londolosie," which was quite a big hit. So I'm very, very passionate about nature and the outdoors. And in fact, leopards as well, that could be the one animal I would choose. - Great idea for that.

But we're gonna be letting you go in just a little while. I realize you are busy and have a lot to do. But before we do that, so in terms of your business investing in other businesses, Brandhub is a prime example. And I think it's an absolutely fantastic model that the guys have got going. And I know it's gonna do really, really well for you. What other businesses do you look at investing in? Are you focused on, and I know it's become a bit cliched now, and depending on who you talk to, the fourth industrial revolution is either still coming, it's never coming, or it has happened already. But are you looking at those type of disruptive businesses? - Yes, that's exactly the main intent. It is to look at businesses that, so I'm not investing in any technology businesses. I don't, there's a lot more space. And even though I was in the IT industry for many years, I don't want to be the guy who actually makes the tech, rather invest in businesses that use, typically use technology, but to fundamentally transform a business model. So yeah, so guys who use best of breed or cobble together the tech, but look to fundamentally change a business model. So Brandhub is one, another example would be a company called Rapistry.

Now, what Rapistry to me is a classic example of the fourth industrial revolution. It is a wedding registry. So when I got married many, many years ago, I used to go to a brick and mortar store, like Stadeford's, which doesn't exist anymore I don't think, and you used to set aside a whole lot of wedding gifts so that people wanted to know what to buy you. They could go to the store and physically put aside gifts and buy them for you. Now, you take that physical store concept, you can think about how inefficient that is for the store, for the bridal couple, for the buyer, I mean, everything is just very difficult, you know? So for the store, you have to have that, all that stock separated out and you have to invest in it and sitting on a shelf, somebody's paying for the stock to sit there idle and it breaks, it gets obsolete, prices change, people want the blue one instead of the white one and you can never keep enough of the stuff, you know? Things go to end of life, end of support or cost. So you can imagine how inefficient this is for the store. Then in terms of the wedding couple, they have to physically go, they physically check everything or physically, man, that's also a pain.

And then you've got to physically go and fetch the stuff and on and on and on. So if you can imagine, let's take that into the digital world and you have a bridal couple who can go and online, choose a whole smorgasbord of different stuff and choose a huge from catalogs, huge broad catalogs, they can choose exactly what they want and whether it's the blue smack toaster or the green one or they prefer this fridge or that fridge. And they can put together exactly what they want and because it's electronic, we can offer so much more than any one physical store could ever offer, it's a much broader range and we can curate that stuff, we can make sure when they make the purchase they can tell them if they can, the color they can get it in, the size, dimensions, all that stuff is available electronically so they can choose wisely. And then if they don't have to actually reserve it because it becomes just electronically available as they can send out to all their guests and a link electronically, the guest logs on, it goes directly to their bridal registry and only sees the products that the bridal couple wants to have. So there's no clutter, so you go into the bridal registry online, you see exactly what the bridal couple want, you can see and once again, you can see the pricing, you can see the quantity, the colors, it's shop around, you choose what you want and you can now because it's all electronic, this site automatically will tell bridal couple, hey, you know, Joe and whatever, Smith had just bought the blue toaster and we can automatically because all electronic take that off of the registries no longer available for sale and the bridal couple gets an alert that's been bought, so they have an ongoing digital

registry of all the stuff they're buying and as they go through the old wedding process, basically all their gifts get sorted for them because it's electronic, we can share with them once we ask them, when would you like your gifts delivered? So that is a fantastic service in my mind because today if you go to a competition, you just get little boxes arriving forever in a day and you're not sure which present comes from whom and which day and it takes weeks for them, so what a mess. So we bring it all together, so we ask you when would you like the gifts delivered and typically after your honeymoon, you come back, so we'd like on the 5th of November, 11 o'clock, boom, we can drive down your driveway, one vehicle, deliver all your gifts and give you the electronic records of who bought what for you, which is another moment of instant differentiation over everybody else. So if you look at that entire business model, typical model of the business that really excites me because you have very small workforce, outsourcing most of the elements and all they do is concentrate on what really differentiates them. So, you know, and they don't invest in the stock, they don't have to duplicate Carol Boy's inventory because we just link that system in and make it available and so we really just focus on what differentiates us and Repestree, that would be about the customer experience.

How do we make the experience better at every link? So that's all we do, you know, we have very few employees but really focused on the digital experience, making it easy, giving them advice, wrapping the presents, delivering it to them. So, you know, every element of the entire wedding, gifting experience, we've mapped, we, Jay has mapped out very carefully with his team and we make sure we get a much better experience, much quicker, much lower cost than going into the physical world and doing it yourself. So Repestree is another example and as you said earlier, there's, you know, off a dozen of those kind of businesses that are looking to change, you know, change the industry. - I think it's absolutely fantastic. So Repestree is one of them. We're running out of time. If people want to get onto Brand Hub, for example, the website address, Brand Hub, so it's all one word but Hub is with two Bs, BrandHub.com. And you don't even have to buy anything initially. You just need to register, am I correct? - That's quite correct. Quite correct, you can actually start by just contributing your energies and efforts and, you know, the first time you actually eventually go to acquire something, you would already have some kind of value in the game, exchange in the game.

So yes, you don't have to, you don't have to go there and buy as your first activity, you know. You could also go there and learn. So you could go and actually say you're interested in a new camera you mentioned. You could go to the site and actually learn some stuff. You can see people unboxing different cameras or giving reviews and all that. You can just hopefully learn a bit and you could contribute yourself. And when you eventually decide to purchase, we'll obviously do that for you in the best possible way we can. - I think that's fantastic. Brett, before I let you go, what is next? What is next for Brett Dawson? - Well, I think I'm three years into this thing and having a lot of fun. Business-wise, I think I'm in the right space. So I don't want to go back into the big corporate. I've had one business really come good, you know, and really went exponential in three years. And three years we managed to take that to the point where it was time to sell it to somebody else and to somebody who could look after a much bigger business. That was a busha, a security play. It worked out very nicely for me. And I think there's two or three more in the stable that will pop through and do extremely well.

And as I said, I think, unfortunately, there's going to be a couple of losers. So I think I'm in the right space. Enjoying what I'm doing, learnt a lot of lessons in this new journey. And I'm loving the ability to work with young folks. Most of these guys who run these businesses are half my age. You know, they've got all the passion and energy and drive and ideas. And I can bring some of the scores on my back because I've learnt a lot of lessons through good and bad. I think you learn more through tough experiences. And hopefully I'm bringing that element of guidance to the guys and, you know, I'm loving that part. So I feel like I'm making a contribution here. And it's exactly where I want to be with my family where they are and all that. Very lucky at the moment. - Fantastic stuff. Greg, thank you so much for taking time out and chatting a little bit about you and about your interests. Greg, I wish you guys every success for that. Thank you so much for chatting to us. All the best. - Thank you, David. There we go. That was my special guest, Brett Dawson. And all about startups. Brand up is absolutely fascinating. If you haven't gone there, go check it out and definitely start to make use of that.

This is what's involved. Until next time, thank you for listening.