Shaun Raaff — Entrepreneur,People Centric, CEO, Employee Experience

What's involved it is welcome, good to have you along with us, another guest lined up for you, this gentleman is a very interesting guest though, because apparently, apparently he is the, and let me make sure I get this right, the Chief Experience Officer, did I get that right? Yeah, you got it right, little plain words I guess, there we go, he is the Chief Experience Officer of a company called the Humanity SA and he is Sean Ruff, hello Sean, welcome to the show. Hi David, thanks for having me man. It's an absolute pleasure, we've been trying to do this for a bit now and I'm glad we got a chance to talk because somehow over the last while, a lot of my conversations that I've been having with people have started and been relating and it's all about becoming more empathetic, about becoming more aware, more conscious, so before we dive into all of this, tell me a little bit about Sean, where were you born, bred and what is the path that led you to where you currently are at Humanity SA? Yeah, cool David, I think born and bred Johannesburg didn't move too far away from where I grew up as a child and so I was born and bred in Johannesburg and I think in terms of I guess where I came from professionally to where we are at the moment is that my background is actually in education and sports psychology, so while studying to become a sports psychologist I was a teacher and did everything from the coaching to the phys ed to the lab orientation and it was a means to an end for me in terms of paying of studies and things like that and so I think that, I guess my background in education I think is probably the biggest influencer on how I view the world, being in education and molding lives I guess is a big responsibility and I think that you take that responsibility from a young life into somebody who's just a bit older than that, who becomes an employee and you really do care about the betterment of that human and I think that apart from just the teaching in a classroom, the coaching on a sports field and then that also I guess ran into the psychology piece of this which was really around high performance and the high performance not just necessarily of an individual but very much more of the team itself, so what do high performance teams look like, it's always been a massive fascination of mine, why were the Manchester United of the 90s just so unbelievably good because they didn't seem to have like just a, it wasn't like the Real Madrid Galactica teams which just had like these superstars, they were a bunch of folks who just seemed to when they did it together were much better than the rest and they were consistent etc and so those sorts of fascinations really did lead me into a couple of years in private practice where I was trying to work with sports teams from a South African perspective, unfortunately that didn't quite work out as planned because I'm going to say I was ahead of my time in terms of the South African market acknowledging the use of psychology and high performance sport because when I approached rugby teams like the Bulls and the Lions, this is 15 years ago, the narrative I got back was a little bit different and so trying to shift into corporate and yeah I guess when you're trying to find a place in corporate and you haven't really come from a corporate background you've got to be quite, you've got to find a way and through that I found a mate who was in recruitment and I said shucks mate what I do here, I'm trying to find a way into corporate I've you know like what do you think and he said well HR and recruitment is a good way to start and so a couple of years in recruitment really learning about what people do inside bigger corporates and business has led me you know or led us to starting humanity five years ago which is in its essence an employee experience company hence the chief experience officer and experience really is everything you know as there's so much around customer experience and ours just focuses inward rather than outward.

Fantastic stuff, I do have to say though you know that the Man United comments, it's still to this very day because likewise I'm a huge Liverpool fan so don't worry like it was just as to like why are they doing this so much better than we are. Oh well now I'm a huge you see we probably shouldn't even be having this conversation because I'm a huge Man United supporter and I'm just broken at the moment but let's not talk about let's not talk about me I mean you guys are your team is doing well so CX was one of the buzzwords for customer experience. You now say that humanity was started with the idea of employee experience. How have you found it? Because traditionally South Africa has been very much set in their ways particularly corporate South Africa in terms of you know why should we worry about employees I mean I did a short stint for somebody who turned around one day to me and said why do you expect me to acknowledge you or to say work well done or any of that I pay your salary at the end of the month and you don't thank me for that. Needless to say from then on for the remainder of the period that I worked in that consultancy area with this company every month I would walk in and say thank you.

But it's been a very archaic system and lots of ivory towers have been built, it's been very much a top down system, how did it feel for you trying to get into this space because people must have gone nah, nah sorry this is all weird and hooty hooty and why must we care about stuff they are just a number on the payroll. Look I think things are changing David I really must be honest and look there will be people who believe in what they believe right and I think that the background which we come from in terms of the hierarchical almost militaristic background you know like a lot of top executives sitting in South Africa were all guys who grew up in the army who said well this is obviously how this works and I didn't go but I had a father who did and uncles and whatever it might be and in fact lots of mates who were 10 years my senior in terms of who were the last sort of guys into the army in the 90s who you know you grew up being taught a way of leadership I guess and so you know it's not necessarily about blaming but it is about change right I mean I just finished that book with the chap who was the CEO of Disney and they talk about innovate or die and I mean all this is an innovation on internal works you know so you know and I think the other thing that's really important to me is that as much as things are shift you know it's the employee base that's shifting not necessarily the leadership base you know and if you don't want to change with your times you're going to lose your best employees because employees like me who grew up in a very different world where you know that you know as a I don't know where I quite said I'm kind of in the middle of a millennial or Gen Z but the you know the point being is that I grew up in a very different world where acknowledgement was a part of growing up and you know these things change and if you are as a leader in today's world are not willing to shift with your employee base well it's going to be very difficult for you to keep and retain and attract great talent and I think that's that's what it all comes down to there's a very interesting I think it was Richard Branson and let me see if I can get this right he believes that you should train staff well enough so that they can leave but treat them well enough that they don't want to yeah hundred percent he also is quite famous around you know he also has that quote around it's not about customer first its employee first and that's kind of where we go down it's it's you know the the experience of your customer is determined by your employee and if your employee is being treated like crap why would you expect your customer to be treated any differently you know so I think that's that's what it all comes down to for us is that if there's a way and that doesn't mean that you have it's this isn't a fluffy thing you know this is you know how you treat people isn't fluffy you know you know cultures can be determined and I think this is the whole thing that people get quite wrong is that people think that this is about like you know fluffy hips the you know kumbaya stuff whereby you know performance or cultures as long as they're set and established and people have all agreed to what the you know what this culture needs to be can be as hard or as soft as you want them to be as long as everybody's on the same page you know and people have agreed to a way of working with one another and I think that that's kind of you know the biggest misconception around like all this like big culture pieces that people think that culture needs to be fluffy and soft it can be anything but you know you you know and again I come back to sport a lot because it's so easy for us to sort of assimilate to or associate to but I mean you know you look at our performance sports teams it's not that because they take it easy it's because they have expectations on each other that are very very high and they have ways of engaging that sometimes have conflict and sometimes are tough but I mean it's about the way they want to go and what they've agreed to be with one another and I think that that's what a lot of that comes down to because yeah I mean and that's you know what we try and help businesses understand is that it can be whatever you want it to be but you've got to have something established that people buy into and people understand it can't be just you know it can't be just something that you just think that people should expect to know or work towards yeah it's a big sort of it's a big undertaking that you've taken on because it's something and you're absolutely right when you talk about the way people want to be treated and there is this almost quiet revolution I believe going on in the workforce where people are going hang on no no no no and I mean I remember you know I grew up sort of probably a little bit before you did but you know my dad for example he was he was a product of you grow up you go to school you go and learn something maybe a trade and then you get a job and you stick with that job for the rest of your life. I couldn't think of anything more horrifying you know and I've worked in places where I've sort of done it because of whatever reasons generally it's monetary and I've hated it I've hated every second of it and I certainly haven't been a good employee we often joke that these days I'm unemployable but we get more into that in a little bit my special guest is Sean Roth from humanity SA we're talking about employees and employee experience we'll be back in just a bit and we're back on what's involved with my special guest from humanity SA the chief experience officer he is Sean Roth so Sean talk to me about you know because I've actually interviewed somebody and she was part of the singular I can't even think this the singularity you event the ladies name is Mimi Nicklin and she's written a book on empathy which is you know this transformational leadership kind of stuff so that's where when I said initially you know it's coming more to the front how do you find that corporates react to you and you know are they getting better were they horrible in the beginning and they didn't want you to interfere as they saw it I think it's again and you know you even talk about the empathy I think a lot of this stuff and I'm gonna say that in the very comments is just misunderstood you know empathy is also misunderstood for sympathy you know empathy is just trying to make sure that you have looked at the perspective of the person who's looking at you you know and and the conversations that you're having and empathy is a magnificent tool when understood properly you know but everybody's scared of it because they think that empathy again is the same as like well I feel sorry for this person I can put to this person or whatever it might be but whenever you know what it really comes down to is teaching people just to make sure that they've looked at it through the lens of the person looking back at them and and can you utilize that perspective to get to the outcome that you're looking to get to you and you know our you know one of our sort of head leadership consultants Craig who's been in the game for you know sort of 20-25 years is you know a huge proponent of the empathy piece and he actually uses quite a lot of neuroscience and you know neuroscience concepts to get into empathy because it's funny when you're talking to you know these like you know the CFO of the accountants or the lawyers or whatever it might be the when you bring science into it or neuroscience they feel like okay well I'll listen to this and then you you know you take the neuroscience path or the neuroscience path to get to what empathy actually feels like and all of a sudden you've got to you know you've got people who traditionally didn't want to listen to it now listening to it because it feels like it's more scientific I don't know if that's that's made a bit of sense but yeah I mean the empathy piece is huge and and vulnerability too you know the you know vulnerability and empathy all all goes hand in hand because I think it's it's it's what your employees are needing and it's what you know the modern day human being expects out of people and I think that again is is so critical to the success of teams is that you know both of you are you know that that both parties the leader and the follower are you know have got an acknowledgement of each other that and making making each other human you know which means that you know as a leader even I might be the CEO of FNB or whatever it might be but that doesn't mean that I don't have days where I wake up and I'm you know like anxious or worried about you know what things are looking like or whatever might be and that showing of vulnerability and using empathy or such you know such key such key drivers of the people that are below you because it makes you human you know and it makes it makes what you're trying to achieve more you know more sensical to the people who are who are following you yeah indeed it is and and you know the irony of this is a lot of it is actually common sense now you know in a in another life before our current circumstances we did a lot of sales training and I dealt with a lot of sales people in the corporate space and one of the things that we talked to them which is very similar to what you do it's the simplified version is perspective taking or walk a mile in another man shoes and yeah these people used to look at us and I'm like how do you expect to genuinely sell your product your widget whatever it may be if you don't take the perspective of your client what are you going to be able to help them with because the days of us selling in the old-fashioned way there's all those are long long gone because people have changed and people these days to my mind are saying both as customers and in the work and the workforce they saying but what's in it for me is that a is that a decent sort of statement for me or do you not agree with that well I do to a point I think and and that's where a lot of the work that we try and do is around like what is the common you know what is the team goal what is the common goal because even as an individual like yes we're all in our individual careers you know so yes we've got our goals and the way we want to go and how we're going to do that but but like how are we aligning ourselves with the people around us and the teams and the leaders to get ourselves into a place where that can all be done you know like I mean you know there's the you know there's no misconception that people who are young in their careers are trying to grow so then but how does a leader get them the best out of that person that they can you know help them establish growth in both what they're looking for as a leader but then also that can help this person grow inside their career you know you know again and I guess the word there that I need to emphasize is alignment you know and alignment can be key it doesn't mean that we both can't win you know it doesn't mean that we both can't move forward in our careers and as both moving forward the team or the company benefits from that you know if anything the company should benefit from it because there's you know if both of us are doing something that isn't in our interest and we're both growing the company by virtue of both of us winning should be winning too and you know unless you're doing some hoodwinking or some moonlighting you know but I mean that's a that's probably a story for for for the other side of HR which I don't get too too much involved in sort of two questions first and foremost you you've been talking about culture and a lot of people and again I've seen this in many corporates you walk in and they've got their values and their mission statement and everything plastered up against the walls and down the corridors and when you ask any of the people that work there so what is what is your mission vision etc etc they have no idea and and they're not particularly interested in it so where does this idea of employee experience actually sort of come into play and where does it work so so do we start off with going okay it's it's culture and then we have to define culture I think to answer that I think we're a huge huge huge proponent of values based leadership you know if you've got the values right and you drive values it should you know the mission and the vision you know it's what we always used to do you know in any business case I remember being at school doing business economics and you'd you know like you'd put a company together to have a vision and a mission and I think those are all important things I think your staff base and I think that your employees have got to know where we're going you know we've got to know where we headed otherwise there's no point in getting in the car and just driving but you know what we what we really really push is our values based values based culture which means that you know we put a set of values to this to how we do things and that you know it's kind of like process psychology you know if you if you focus on the process and how you do it you should get to where you you know you should get to your results so values are for us a way of process and so you know for instance you know in our you know in our little company we've got nine values that we live by everybody's got an understanding of what we're trying to get to but you know you know if we if we do it in a particular way the way we do it should get us to where we're trying to go and I think that you know that's that's one of our biggest you know for us as a business we try and really push that into our clients to you know because it's easy to to drive values and the ways in which we how we do things you know as a leader and as an employee you know if you've got four or five values that you that you live and die by you know like if you've got those are the things they're easy to to talk about all the time they're not just something that sits on a wall you know the you know the and they become quite active in the way that you go day to day and I think that it's a you know it's a much easier way of staying true to something and yeah the vision and mission the things that are on the wall and you know you go into lots of the bigger companies and they've got those beautiful statues you know that you know that have got the this times this divide by this minus that you know and it's got these beautiful statues also again like you know they're all a waste of time if you're not living by them and if you if you that's a hard thing to live by when it's like these big park dreams whereby you having a set of values that you work by you know like it's a it's like a compass you know like you know when you're making decisions do these go by the values which we're trying to drive if I've got to have a tough conversation and I'm having this conversation based on the values that we've that we've agreed upon you know and they're you know the nice thing what values is that values are something that you can you know you can have and you can adjust and you can say right guys we're in a particular time of year and like this is the this is go time and you know the values is you know whatever it might be you know high energy you know tough on you know tough on X and Y and Z and you know we're gonna leave these things and anyway so yeah without without I guess blabbering too much on it like I think the big thing for us is values if you can if you can drive sets of values and there are things that you can emphasize all the time I think that gets a lot more results than a vision and a mission that sits on a wall right we're getting somewhere with this and then we're starting to dive a little deeper into it my special guest is Sean Raff he is the chief experience officer of humanity SA when we come back more from Sean this is what's involved and we're back with my special guest Sean Raff from humanity SA Sean a question for you why would we want to do this if somebody is listening and they've got a business of whatever way or whatever shape or form rather and it could be a medium business could be a corporate why would I want to go on this journey with you guys for example do you want the short answer I don't know how short is the short answer short the short answer is that it makes you more money you know the short answer is that like when you're doing all these things right all of the science and all of the the you know all of the statistics and all of the research suggests that businesses that are doing this right are being more successful in revenue and bottom line and I think that that's what we're trying to drive into the customers that we are engaging with is that like this is not just about how I feel because how I feel also determines how I perform and how I perform impacts how much you know profit this business can drive and I think that that's you know what we're trying to get to is that this is not soft fluffy kumbaya sit round a fire stuff it's about high performance and getting the most out of your people and I think yeah that that's really the thing we are really really really trying to emphasize and I think that's what you talked about earlier it's like this must be a tough environment to be into but I mean you know it's not hard to sell things that you know like it's not hard to sell technologies that make people higher performers you know like that's what the business listens you know whereas this is exactly the same thing and so yeah I think that was longer than the short answer but I hope the point has been made that's for sure absolutely it has so so it's all about driving revenue it's about increasing the bottom line and being in an environment that you want to be in I would guess so give us an idea what type of a company would come and talk to you Sean and say okay you know give me an example of a company we can make it up but they come to you and go listen you know no the only culture we get is in the tub of yogurt please help us you know you know funnily enough our clients range you know our clients range from big corporates where we're not necessarily engaged at you know at the top level for a business of 5000 people but we're involved with subsets and teams and divisions within the big corporate because there are certain leaders who want to drive change you know and there are certain leaders who I think get this you know that you know there are enough books out there and I think that the narrative is pretty clear that you know as you drive employee culture and high performance and all these things that you know which are involved in the journey that we look to work with somebody because I think that's kind of what we really try to emphasize and I'm glad that you brought the word up as a journey because the journey is from when somebody first engages with your company so that might be through a recruiter it might be through a referral it might be through somebody who talks about what they do in their job and you know whatever it might be you know through the process of how I got recruited into this business and I do apologize for the drilling our building has been emptied since COVID and now it seems that they're bringing back some tenants and so I do apologize if you can hear the drilling in the background but you know the point being is that that journey that starts in talent acquisition in terms of like well how are we bringing in the best people for this business that goes all the way through to the culture of the business how people feel and experience the internal driving to the development programs and then as far as leadership training and then all the way to you know we want people who leave businesses to be assets not liabilities and that's our biggest goal you know people will leave your business you know people you know unless you know there are very few young employees these days that like you talked about your father earlier who you know who stuck out that job for 30 years got the golden watch and left you know but when people leave it's not a bad thing it means that either you've developed them that they've got bigger you know they've got into a bigger job or you've developed them and that they feel that they're going to change but if they leave your business as an asset you know that that that talks about your business in huge like positive lights and that the way that you impacted them as a professional etc etc you that is what the brand that you're looking to to create and and through that and you know we are getting people into you know it like that's that's what we're trying to drive and I think to get back to your question the what does a client look like you know often it's the SOS call that goes you know shucks Sean I'm not too sure what to do like I'm bleeding people left to right I can't you know my high performers are leaving and I don't know what to do or flip my I know that our talks our culture is toxic but I don't know how to change it or you know so those are kinds of the start of the conversations and our biggest you know our biggest goal is to make sure that we've one assessed actually what might be the problem and often it's you don't know what you don't know and so for us to come in and really have a look see as to how you know your total system looks and that can be in multiple spheres we really do believe in data we believe in making sure that we've looked at that that that you look at things objectively and not subjectively and a lot of the culture piece and the things that guys are worried about is actually more subjective than they like to think so we use you know a lot of tools and we use a lot of forms of assessment and interviewing and qualitative and quantitative data to make sure that we've really assessed where somebody might be having problems and then once we've got that assessment done we try and you know and and and fulfill a strategy role with these guys is to like well what can the change look like for you over time you know it's it's you know people don't like change and particularly now with covert in the world in terms of like how anxious everybody feels like you can't come in and you know you can't come in and wipe the floor with these huge changes you've got to be really really careful as to how you drive you know a process in terms of like getting a business to where they want to be in terms of that people feel valued people feel like they want to be at work people feel that they've got the purpose because once you've got all those things right people are coming and they're going to be better performers for you and that and again that's the thing that impacts bottom line and those are the things that everybody at the moment are desperate for you know I mean times are tough you know why wouldn't you want to be doing everything that you can to get the best out of the employees that you've potentially managed just to keep you know because you've had to retrench or whatever it might be yeah that's a lot of valid points in there and it certainly is an interesting way of approaching something in terms of your culture and how you deal with people in your organization before we're about to go into a break in and we're running out of time as I always do because I love talking to people about this kind of stuff Sean where would company culture start because to my mind and something I'm very very passionate about is small businesses and medium businesses because I believe those are going to be the big corporates of tomorrow but where would it start where do you start or need to start thinking about these things I think if I've understood I think when you talk about like where does it start I think my first initial reaction to that question is it has to start with the leader it has to start at the top and it has to go all the way down through that organization and you know you look at just organizations that just have got this right you go look at the leader you know and then you go look at organizations that I mean we work into lots of companies where the middle managers are trying to do something about this but yet the guys at the top just aren't that interested and you can just see how hard this is then to drive you know because it's you know you can see that guys are wanting it in the middle but if it's not if it's not driven from the top it's a very very difficult thing and I mean when you know when you talk about small businesses I mean we have we as a small business have got to try and live our own brand right I mean like we've got to try and do these things and let me tell you it is very very difficult you know we have a team of 16 people and even in our small team of 16 people getting this right all the time is it takes active and lots of work you know we you know and those are the things that you've got to try and live and breathe because this can't be an intervention you know it's not an intervention or a facilitation this is this is consistency it's about driving it's about making sure that this stuff is done all day every day by the leaders in the business because it will drive the what you're looking for in terms of the values and the culture that you want in your people and I think that's probably again one of the big misconceptions is that somebody can come in and do a huge workshop and everybody feels who are and they want a high five and they feel great but then if it's not driven consistently you know you talk about like driving a way of working if you aren't driving that every day nothing's going to change you know our neural pathways are are fixed to go into autopilot and if you aren't changing it you know like day on day on day on it's it's going to go back to old habits without without fail and I that's one of our big drivers as to well how do we consistently over time create change rather than come in and you know do one big intervention and like like you know like like all public speakers do or motivational speakers of which I feel are really important in this world but listen to a message and feel great you know for a day or two doesn't then impact the long lasting change that you want in your masses and so it really is about like small things over time rather than one big change or intervention very good point day my special guest is Sean Raff he is from humanity SA when we come back we'll be wrapping it up with Sean this is what's involved so good to have you along with us our back wrapping it up with Sean Raff my special guest from humanity SA he's the chief experience officer Sean you made some very valid points before the break and one of the things that while you were talking just came to my mind it's one of my frustrations as well is that very often companies would call people like yourself people like myself in when they are in crisis for myself I'm talking about the sales perspective of things and then you go in there for sort of two days and you show people there's a different way of acting a different way of behaving and you know some some technology etc etc and it's all great and then you walk out of there and the problem is that you know you can walk out of there on a Friday for example and by Monday all of those good vibey feelings and yay we all like love each other we're now pointing in the right direction and we slip back you talked about neural pathways and I love the fact that you are very clear that these things are small incremental changes how long do you work with it with an average client for sure I mean we we have clients that we've been with for two and a half three years you know but not on a massive scale but we're almost like we become an accountability partner so you know when you are working with leaders and leadership within you know organizations I mean we you know our longest lasting clients probably a 500 employees strong business and we've been working with them now for just almost three years around you know long term strategies and and and our I get the what we do now for them is we've got a tool that obviously gives them all the data but what we're doing is we're then assessing all that data with them on a consistent basis and we're holding them accountable to the things that they committed to as a leadership team you know so you know there's that you know cars in theory is a is such a such an awesome way of thinking about it because again like we don't want any of this to feel fluffy we want us to feel like science because we know and we can you know the research all suggests that when you do all these things right it's it's about profitability and you know like it's a yeah I mean like you said you know that that's that's for us like how long we work for guys I mean we have lots of clients you you know it might be budget specific and they say shucks we you know can we do one thing and we you know we can do that but our goal is really to be a partner with businesses we work either with leadership or HR or you know whoever the the the stakeholder who who's trying to drive a way of working you know we look to partner that person and we look to support and you know we've you know we've got multiple ways in which that can do but I mean yeah I mean the what we do is very fluid and it needs to be because there's no one way you know every way needs to be totally specific to the need of that person at that time you know and that client and what's happening with their people and you know all those things and so yeah it's not a yeah it's certainly not a system where you go well you know here's the here's here's the model this is what we're gonna do and it'll work it needs to be totally based on the situation and the time and the people and the resources and all the all those good things and it can be small and it can be big but if you're doing you know at least if you've got the small things and you're doing them you know you can still drive huge change within your organization indeed now Sean what is your vision and and what is the vision of humanity essay what's your big picture where are you going to so our big picture I think you know we if we finally enough had a had a town hall internally in our business on Friday and and and I kept trying to drive the message inside our business and they asked me you know when we started this business what was the what was our purpose and one of the internal purpose of our business was to be one of the best businesses in the world to work for so that was one so that I mean you know internally that's that's our message is that we want to be one of the best businesses because if you've got one of the best businesses to work for you will you are going to drive great things out of people and you're going to and you're going to attract great people to come and work for you but then on the other side of that it's to help them businesses be the same thing you know how do we help businesses be great businesses to work for and how do we take how do we help you take people along great journeys you know and that's and that's really what it looks like you know we don't you know like our our our goals have never been things that look like revenue our goals are like how we work because how we work will drive revenue and so so that's that's that's how we were and I think yeah that's that's the messaging from us and to our clients and internally you know you're going to live what you are and that's we want to be what we are internally to our clients too thanks a lot of sense but as you were talking again I was sitting here thinking you know back in the in the old days in the olden days as they say it was all about profit it was all about bottom line but there was no humanity in it and that I said humanity with intent there because it was you know I don't care what you're doing I don't care how long it takes I don't care about this this is what you need to do shut up knuckle down and do it and and so often and I've seen this in my career they are square pegs that have been hammered into round holes and this this creates so much friction within a company so we're running out of time and before I let you go I do want to ask you one more thing though for Sean Raff specifically what is your next where are you heading to what is your big vision so if you ask my mates and you ask my wife like the big dream is to stand on a TED stage and and shaft this from the rooftops really like I believe in what we do massively I believe in the power and the potential of people and I think that that's you know like that's what I want you know I want great I want teams to succeed in people to succeed it's a huge driver so you know on a personal level I mean like this is my partner earlier myself this is you know this is our business and we we are driven like heck to make sure that we are able to to influence you know the the clients in the world around us and so that's that's the big picture it's not you know it's it's to it's to make a mark and you know and and that's that's a big thing is to watch people and businesses and leaders succeed around us because that means we're doing you know it's what we're doing and we're doing it properly wonderful now is that just for South Africa or is is your vision to go South Africa up into Africa and then potentially overseas as well yeah we have a couple of clients up in Africa so we've got a couple of minds funnily enough up through you know north of the borders which we've been working with some exec teams on and that's been that's been really really cool work and I guess the virtual world that we've begun to live and breathe in terms of how we communicate you know have really opened up our eyes to to opportunities and you know look there's a lot of work to be done you know right here at home but I mean there's no there's nothing that says that we can't do this internationally I think there's a you know obviously you know like you know big to be a big global player I don't know if that's what you know what what drives us to wake up in the morning but if that is a result of what we do day in and day out well then that's great you know I think but yeah I mean we've worked with with clients up in Africa we have a big client base across South Africa so I mean there's no you know there's this there's I mean and this space like you said there's a lot of work to go around and so you know there are lots of you know there's lots of good work to be done and when people start to trust what you do and they start to see the results well we're going to be very busy people and I think you know we're excited about where this journey is going because I think that all of what is happening right now and COVID is really really highlighted the need for people to be at the forefront of your attention you know that and and that is that's what we're excited about we I think that people are shifting and they're starting to really really see the importance of like why it's of why treating people in a manner that that gets good results of them is important and so that's exciting fantastic so if somebody wants to get hold of yourself or of humanity essay what is the best way to do that so look the website which you know is has been all newly developed around a virtual world so humanity sa.ca.za so our website's got everything we've got hello at humanity sa.ca.za so people could email us and then our LinkedIn page is very active as well so you know all of those channels we've got Facebook and Instagram as well that's a bit more social and a bit more you know a bit more playful but you know you know our website humanity sa.ca.za and our LinkedIn pages are probably the best places to contact us and you know get get a hold of us and see what we're up to wonderful stuff that has been my special guest Sean Roth thank you Sean for taking the time out and having a chat to us I hope we've made some people set up and take notice and maybe start to do things just a little bit differently I wish you and your entire team all the best once again a very big thank you to you wonderful thanks man says there we go my special guest Sean Roth humanity sa.ca.za is the place to go and that wraps it up for this particular hour of what's involved to each and every one of you thank you for listening.