Lwando Xaso — Lawyer, Human Rights Activist, Author

What's involved there is yet another episode. Time always flies and I get to meet and chat to some of the most incredible people. And tonight is just such a person that I'm going to be chatting to. Her name is Luando Caso and I probably got that wrong, but she said she doesn't mind if I mispronounced it. Luando, hello, welcome to the show. - Hi David, thank you for having me. How are you? - I'm well, thank you. - Now, Luando, you first came to my attention when I was sent a book of yours that you'd written to read. And it's called "Made in South Africa, A Black Women's Stories of Rage, Resistance and Progress". And when this book landed on my desk, and I try and make a point of, people are good enough to send me books, this one was from Tracy McDonald Publishers, that I read them. But I started to read this book with quite a bit of trepidation 'cause I'm from very much I was born into the apartheid era, the apartheid regime. I've gone through in those days when there was a forced military conscription. I like to think I'm liberal these days. I'd like to think I've grown as a person, but still sometimes I get smacked upside the head and reminded that I may not have grown as much as I would have liked to.

And then this book. So before we get into the book, Luando, tell me a little bit about you, about your background and how we got to this book "Made in South Africa".

- It's always a hard question when people say, tell me a little bit about yourself because there's so many strands and within a limited time, you never know which one to emphasize. But I guess in keeping with the theme of the book, I am South African, but I'm a South African who has learned to locate herself within a bigger worldview. You know, the cliche of trying to be a global citizen, of caring about things beyond just our borders. And, you know, I was born in Johannesburg and I spent some time in Port Elizabeth before I started school. And then when it was time to start school, I came back to Joburg and I've been here ever since, other than the leaving back and forth, going to school in various places. And Johannesburg is home. I love the chaos of Johannesburg. I love the temple. I love the people. I love how rushed and how outspoken we are. I just love the energy. So definitely I would say Johannesburg feels like home. I am an idealist. You know, I believe that ultimately good always triumphs no matter how long it takes. You know, I believe in making things better, not necessarily perfection. And I believe in the South African project as it was conceived in 1996 and not 1910. So I'm just a person who is driven by carrying forward the legacy of ancestors that I respect, the people who came before me, the generation that came before me.

I have a lot of respect for older people who have lived through different chapters of South Africa's life. We've seen a lot, we've learned a lot and I love listening to them talk and tell me about their experiences. And I am on the other side of that quite lighthearted. I love playing pranks on people. I don't have enough time to do that, but I'm quite easy going in a lot of ways. I'm not always thinking about, you know, the constitution and progress and law and those kinds of things. I just like hanging out with my friends, having good conversation or hanging out with my parents and just tapping into what they're feeling, what they're going through. I love conversation. So another thing I'll say is I was an extrovert when I was young who then became an introvert and now I'm learning my extrovert ways again and speaking out more and connecting with people more. - Fantastic. Now you've got a legal background as well. Talk to me a little bit about that. - Yeah, so in the book I talk about, there's a part where I mentioned what inspired me to be a lawyer. So as I said, I was pretty shy as a child, you know. Well, I first started like most children very extroverted, but then people, older people will tell you that that's not in a child's place.

Children shouldn't say that or do that and that kind of thing. So I just decided to keep quiet. It's the path of less resistance. And so I became an introvert. And I remember when I was about 11 or 12, you know, I'm an only child. So I'd come home from school. There are no siblings to play with. So I'd turn on the television after doing my homework. And there was something quite fascinating on television that really changed my idea of what I could be and what I could do. And I was watching a real life court trial on CNN. And I had no idea who the characters were, but the character that caught my attention in that trial was a woman, turned out her name is Marsha Clark. And it turns out the trial was that of OJ Simpson. It used to play during the day. And I remember being captivated by Marsha Clark, you know, how she worked the courtroom, the use of her voice, you know, her authority, how she dressed, you know, she looked like power to me. And I remember doing a school project saying, I want to do what this woman does. And I was told she was a prosecutor, she was a lawyer. I'm like, OK, I want to be a lawyer. And I've never diverted from that. I pursued it relentlessly since I was quite young.

And I became a lawyer. I mean, all my friends who went to school with me, when they find out, like when we catch up, they're like, oh, so you did end up doing law. It's the least surprising out of all my friends in terms of how we turned out. So I've always known that I wanted to be a lawyer. It started from something superficial, like the OJ Simpson trial. But as soon as I was, you know, sort of waking up to the realities around me and learning more about our constitutional transition and learning more about people like Nelson Mandela, who were lawyers, who were leaders, and all of the time with all those people, is that then it became such a deeper meaning of what, you know, it means to be a lawyer in South Africa and how you can use that as an instrument to expand what freedom means for everyone. So I did my law degree. And then I did my articles at Dines rates, which today is known as Norton Rose. I then left because I knew that I wanted to go back to school because I discovered the kind of law that I wanted to specialize in. And that was constitutional law. So I did my master's at UCT. And I was then fortunate to clock at the constitutional court for Edwin Cameron in 2011. And that's when I knew for sure that I want to live my life in service of South Africa in the way that-- I mean, it can never match Justice Cameron, but in that same spirit.

Which, yeah, lofty, lofty ideals and lofty shoes to fill. But you know what? It can be done. And if I look at-- and I'm jumping now because I got so involved with this book. But just at, I mean, the foreword was written by him. And also, you got Cheryl Corollas in there. And it's weird that we can. And I think it's also very, very good and refreshing that you and I can sit and have this conversation about your book. Because the book made me-- it made me feel incredibly bad. It made me feel sad. I laughed at some stages. I cried at others. I was incredibly frustrated. And I walked that path along with you. Because it's divided up into those sections. Because it's made in South Africa, a black woman's stories of rage, resistance, and progress. If I may quote-- Yeah. Yes. And I hope the last part of the book made you feel inspired a little bit. Well, can I tell you, I wanted to quote something from you if I may. Because that's what gave me hope. And this is something that Uwanda wrote. And it's right in the beginning of the book. Being South African is not for the faint hearted or the fragile. It is a strong and determined state of mind. It is believing in the improbable. It is being challenged and frustrated to your wit's end.

But still finding a reason to smile. It is believing that no matter how dark the day, the sun will shine again. It has to. South Africa has ballasted, steeled, chiseled, molded, and prepared me for a life of rigor. I am made by South Africa. And I would not choose any differently. Man, that is a powerful piece of writing. Thank you. And it comes from the heart. And I don't take it lightly when I say I wouldn't choose any differently. Because I've seen in the last kind of 10 years where our constitutional democracy has been under strain. And people have bowled hopeless. And I remember a colleague of mine, a white woman, saying to me, you are young enough to immigrate. And I remember looking at her as if she was speaking a different kind of language. I just had no idea what she meant. It was one of those tough days with whom I had fired someone waking up to the news of the minister of finance has been replaced or whatever. And in response to that, we were both desponded. I mean, if you're a constitutional lawyer, you're an idealist. You believe in the loftiness of the vision that is set out in the preamble. And when she said to me, you are young enough to immigrate, I was like, no, I am the kind of person that if the ship is going down, I'm going down with it.

But with a fight, you know? And it's because I choose to. I can choose to immigrate, but I choose to stay. In fact, leaving has never crossed my mind. So I never-- the I'm staying movement never resonated with me because it's just not something that I've ever had to contend with. And that when I look at South African history and all that has been-- all that this country has been through and all the sacrifices of people that I will never know. Most of them I'll never know. For me, it's like I find pride in being part of that tradition of being in this tug of war over what South Africa can be, being part of that struggle. A lot of people always look back in history and say, hmm, if I was born in the 1950s or if I was born earlier, what kind of role would I have played in the struggle? Well, the question is still relevant today because they're still a struggle. They'll always be a struggle. That's the nature of life. So for me, that part where I say I wouldn't have it any differently, I truly mean that because I can't-- for all the good things that I am, that people see in me, I have to credit to this country. And all the bad things, unfortunately, that I am, I also have to credit to this country.

And you know, that is so true. And that's one thread that is definitely-- we have in common you and I because a lot of the people that I've known over the years have immigrated. They've gone, this country is going to the dogs. I'm out of here. Myself and my family, because of our ancestry, we could. We could immigrate. It's never crossed my mind. I've always gone, no, because if I leave, it means that our Constitution has failed. And the people that wanted to bring the Constitution down have won. And I could never, ever tolerate that because I do. I believe-- we've got one of the best, I believe, one of the best, most robust constitutions in the world. And it's something that does still give me hope. Let's dive a little bit deeper into the book when we come back. My special guest is Luanda Caso. And we are chatting about her book, Made in South Africa, A Black Woman's Stories of Rage, Resistance, and Progress. We'll be back in just a bit. And we're back with my special guest, Luanda. So let's start at the very beginning because these-- when I say book, it's actually a series of essays in a book form. And you wrote these-- what it was about-- over an eight-year-old period, between 2013 and up to date, up to this year.

So during that time, you were working at the Constitutional Court, weren't you? I had just left the court. I had gone back to-- I'd worked for government a little bit. I'd worked for a commission of inquiry for two years. But I started properly, properly writing when I went back to private practice, which was around 2015. And I was asked to be a regular contributor to The Daily Maverick. And I also wrote for other publications, like The Sunday Independent, and The Business Day, and various other outlets. And I just thought that, first of all, it was my publisher who approached me to do a book. And I was actually putting her on dodge. I didn't really want to meet up with her when she first emailed me. But then when I finally said yes, and we sat down, and she told me her idea, it was perfect, because I've always thought that my first book would be a collection of the work that I've written over the years. And I think, for me, it's a good exercise, because it gives you some kind of perspective. It gives you some sense of journey. And it's just a good reflective exercise on some of the things that a lot of us have endured in our recent history. And I think sometimes we move so quickly through it, just like the new cycle is so rapid, that we barely notice the impact that the events of South Africa have on our psyche and on our bodies.

So sitting down and actually looking at some of the older essays and piecing it together with reflections that I've done for each of the essays. And some of them I knew was quite cathartic for me, especially doing all of this during lockdown. Yeah. OK. So let's talk a bit about the book, Luanda, because, as I said, it's a book that certainly has affected me. It's divided into those three sections, as I said. The first one being rage. Talk to me a little bit about rage. I'd like just to touch on some of the things in the book, but let's not go too deeply into it, because people need to read this. But talk to me about rage. What stood out for you in terms of rage? I think if you've been living in this country for as long as we both have been, you've been here much longer, is that there's no way anger or rage is not part of your character in certain ways. There's no way that that part of you is not provoked by some of the things that happen. And I think rage, what stuck out to me, rage is how I express my compassion. I saw a quote that I can't remember who it's by, but saying that rage is an expression of compassion. And it really resonated with me, because it's at moments where I kid deeply that I'm the most angered.

And there's certain things that have happened, which I detail in the book, that left me completely infuriated. But at the same time, rage is quite exhausting. And there's an article in the book where I talk about, I'm tired. I'm tired of saying the same thing. I'm tired of commenting on racism. I have run out of words to say. So I've learned that rage is compassion and it's care. But I've also learned that the danger with rage is that it can't be chronic. You can't be stuck there. So in as much as rage tells you something is wrong, you need to move to a space where you can think of how you can contribute to solving the problem. So I own-- there's a stereotype that black women are angry. That's a stereotype that I own. And I'm not ashamed by that, because I really think that black women are very compassionate. And you see that compassion through the anger that they express over things that are intolerable, or out of the sense of we can do better.

Yeah, because there's a couple of those-- in terms of the rage, there's a couple of them that got to me, the soft share of racism, definitely, when you were talking about anger and transformation. And then who is entitled to tell what stories? Because so often, we think of this racism and this divide as being a purely black and white thing. And yet, it's not. It's this-- I don't know, people not wanting to understand and embrace the differences in other people, because you're closer. And you said in that particular one, you were discussing the initiation and things like that, and not in a way of, this is your background. Talk to me so that I can learn some more and understand some more. It was quite confrontational, wasn't it? Yeah, I think the-- I read a book called Caste by Isabel Wilkerson. And she really explains how caste-- how the caste system works, which racism forms a part of. She talks about caste as being the bones of the system, and racism is the flesh and blood. So I think the way that caste works, or if you like, the way that racism works is that it makes everyone an active participant, whether you hate the system or not. So it's one of those things that if you're told you are superior, you can't help but receive that message.

It's like when you tell a child that they're smart. They try and live up to that. If you tell them that they're not smart, you kind of see them not trying and believing what the world is telling them. So black people are told they're inferior, and white people are told they're superior. But black people end up believing that they're inferior, and white people end up believing that they are superior, no matter what their intentions, because the world is propped up by the caste system. And I think that with the soft-serve racism essay is that in that particular one, it was a man of Indian descent who was clearly being the proponent of racism and serving white people before serving me. That could be some internalized racism on his side, or the acceptance that white people are superior. And therefore, they need his attention first. It could be born out of fear because he was an older man of Indian descent. So it could be that the patterns of racism haven't quite dissolved, even though we live in a constitutional democracy. And then in the essay that you talk about, about closer initiation, is that when it comes to the questioning of closer initiation, it comes from a lot of directions, not only just from white people, but from other cultures as well, who find it problematic that closer people still practice initiation.

And the line of questioning has always been about shaming me for being a feminist, for being a believer in God, and for being educated, and progressive, and still identifying in closer-- I mean, as closer in the kind of way that closer is made up of language, culture, practices, ancestry, and so many things, that for me, what makes me angry is having to defend who I am and explain it to others. And what I don't do in the essay, I don't betray what my personal feelings are about initiation because I really don't think they have to be explained to anybody else other than my community, only to say that we are smart enough, and we are self-reflective enough to be able to make these decisions on our own. So I think when a person then uses closer initiation as a backdrop to their storytelling, and they're not part of the culture, and knowing very well that that part of closer culture is actually quite private, we don't really talk about it, it's in the nature of it, but the incessant need of wanting to always expose that, going against the wishes of closer people, for me, it does make me angry. And I must say, it is a knee-jerk reaction, but that's part of what living in South Africa is like, is that we all have different sensitivities.

And when you provoke something in someone, they're not liable in terms of how they're going to react to that because it's so complicated. If the world was even, if there had been no apartheid or colonialism, and black and white people had always been equal, and it was within that setting that people were asking me about closer initiation, then there's room to talk there and to actually relate to one another. But because of history, I view that interference or questioning with a lot of suspicion, unfortunately. Sure, there's just so much. This is what's involved. My special guest is Luanda Craso, and she's the author I've made in South Africa, Black Women's Stories of Rage, Resistance, and Progress. We're going to get onto the resistance part when we come back. We'll be back in just a bit. And we're back with my special guest, Luanda Craso. So the book moves on, and we get into the resistance phase of that. Give me some examples of what you were trying to get across there. You know, I think rage is one thing. It's that moment where you caught up in the emotion. You can't think clearly. And I think resistance is having identified that there's a problem. There's certain ways in which people try and change the status quo.

They try to live their lives in resistance to the lies that the world tells them. And I think what I was trying to get across is that part of the things that we take for granted in South Africa is actually, you know, if I look at-- for instance, this is the section of the book that has the tribute to Nelson Mandela. And I put it under resistance because I'm resisting the claims that Nelson Mandela was somehow a sellout. And it's my way of setting the record straight that just logically doesn't make sense. I think there is a way of criticizing someone in their decisions without calling them a sellout. That's just taking it a bit too far, and it's unsubstantiated. And I put it there also for another reason because he is a life that really teaches us what resistance is like. And resistance takes many forms, right? And if you look at his life, he had about 60 years of being an activist, of being part of the struggle. And each decade of those 60 years, he resisted in what the moment called for. So there was peaceful resistance. There was defiance. There was armed resistance. There was negotiating. And then there was actually leading a country and a country in transition. So for me, resistance is about how even if we don't make the kind of progress that we intend to make out, but how the decisions that we make on a day-to-day basis is about resisting being overtaken by the ills of the world.

So one of the personal essays that is in resistance is about Serena Williams. So there are some Americans in this book. There's some Barack Obama, there's Serena, and there's Beyonce. And I think being South African is that you are influenced by the rest of the world and some of the icons that we see. And I talk about Serena Williams because my body has been compared to hers, being a tall black woman who's been quite athletic. And I remember hating myself physically. And I think part of resistance is me taking pride in my body, me divesting from the value system of the world and what the world considers to be valuable, and saying, I no longer want to play according to those rules. I don't care about your rules and what you value. I'm going to create my own world, or I'm going to subscribe to a version of the world, which I think is supported by the Constitution, where I'm valuable being myself. And that's what that essay is about. And then the other one talks about the women of the Constitutional Court and the work that they have done, which for me is a form of resistance against sexism, because a lot of people still think that women should not hold those kind of positions of authority.

And also, the work that they have done has actually played a role in combating sexism in a legal way in our country by the judgments that they have written. And their mere presence on the court is just a sign of resistance to some kind of old order, where judges or judicious people were seen as white male, elderly, that kind of figure. And when you see these four women that I talk about, they really are on the extreme side of that old vision. So for me, that is a form of resistance that we are a country that has created the institutions that we've created with the kind of characters that we are now coming to see holding positions of power. And then the other one was, I call it the weight of a leader's words. And that was basically in criticism to Zuma. And I felt that President Zuma just never had the words to inspire South Africa. And in so many ways, he was quite self-serving. And part of me starting to write during the Zuma years was trying to give myself that kind of inspiration that I was lacking, and that I was so used to from my childhood, and from President Tabun Bege, who I thought was quite inspirational with words. I mean, he gave us, I'm an African. So I started writing because I felt that void under his presidency.

And for me, that writing became my form of resistance. And powerful, powerful words. Indeed, some of those are. I have a question, though, Luanda. And we're going to get into progress as well. But deep inside of you, do you believe that it's all going to work out? Do you believe that maybe we can actually be the leaders of this transformation? And when I say we, I'm talking about us as South Africans. Yeah, it's funny you asked me that because yesterday I immediately went to exclusive books to buy President Barack Obama's book, A Promised Land, because I knew it was coming out on the 17th. And I spent the night reading it. And he's basically grappling with that same question. And I think that's why in the book I do mention Barack Obama a lot. Because I sense the same sort of search that I'm going through within a South African context. Because a lot of people feel like the America that Barack Obama is fighting for doesn't exist. It's an illusion. Or it's exceptional in the sense that it is not the prevalent America that the rest of the world sees. Or some people, especially Black people, have experienced. And I think it's the same for South Africa. And I think that's why the two countries tend to relate on so many levels.

You have the caste system, the racial dynamics, and all of that. And when I think of is it all going to work out, I don't believe in giving certain answers, answers that give people certainty. I don't think certainty is the point, or definitiveness is the point. I think what I can say is that I've seen the best of South Africa. And I've seen the kind of conditions we need for us to see the best in South Africa. And I think that if we work towards creating more forgiving conditions for everyone, where people can feel like they belong, they can thrive. And I always think of the early 2000s. And perhaps I'm romanticizing. And maybe it was too early in our constitutional democracy. But it felt like there was a lot of investment in South Africa. There was a lot of economic movement, strong leadership, and all those things. And we got the announcement that we'd be hosting the rugby, not the rugby, the soccer World Cup. I think that was announced in 2003 that we're going to have the 2010 World Cup. So there was a lot of excitement and growth. And people feeling like, OK, I have a place in the system. And I can support myself. And I can find dignity in work and all of that. And stories of corruption were there.

But they were not as blatant. And I think for me, I like thinking of the longer view. But I can never say for sure that it's all going to work out. I think that is what we're grappling with now. That is what we're struggling with now. And I think by showing up and saying that I want to be part of the struggle, and this is the side that I'm on, if more people took a position-- I was watching "Chasing the Sun," the World Cup documentary, the rugby World Cup documentary. And it was really inspiring. Some people may call it cheesy or whatever. But that is just a microcosm of what South Africa can be, of people from different backgrounds with a goal. You don't necessarily have to be friends. But you all have to be aligned that there's a certain outcome that you want and you're willing to sacrifice. Some people have to sit on the bench. They can't be the starters. Some people are in the audience. They are part of the spectators. And life is not fair in that way. But we all have a common goal. And we'll each play our part because we want to triumph at the end. And a part of that has to do with serving something bigger than yourself and not being self-interested all the time and self-involved.

So I can say that if more and more people's hearts change in terms of finding inspiration independent of presidents and leaders, but finding it within yourself for your own rights, that you can sustain it even in moments where we have a president like Zuma. And you understand the power of the people and that we are a kind of nation that will not tolerate that kind of leadership. And we didn't. I think we made President Zuma's presidency hell up until the moment he resigned. That really gave me so much hope in the same way that Americans are feeling now in that they were able to, in a democratic way, bring down the symbol of division, which is President Trump, and living to fight another day. But does that mean America's problems are over, that there's going to be a happy ending? No one can guarantee that. But we can definitely invoke the spirit that it took for us to march against Zuma and so many other things that we've marched for in the past and to channel that towards the bigger vision of actually making South Africa work. I think it's an iterative kind of struggle. And we each have a role to play. I don't know how it ends. I have hopes in terms of how it ends. I think we all have hopes.

And maybe to say we're cautiously optimistic is not a bad thing. This is what's involved. My special guest is Luando Carso. And we're talking about an incredible book that she's written called "Made in South Africa-- A Black Woman's Stories of Rage, Resistance, and Progress." We'll be wrapping it up with Luando when we come back. And we're back with my special guest, Luando Carso. And we're talking about her book. We've moved on in the last little section. We were talking a bit about progress. And it's one of those things when we look at our country, at least for me, is we don't see progress. We don't see much progress. And it's very, very easy to point fingers and to look at all the things that are wrong with our country. I, for one, am feeling fatigued. And this COVID-19 hasn't helped at all. I am just so tired. You talk about the struggle and the struggle continuing. And I'm like, yeah, but sure. What part can I play? Can I make a difference anymore? I'm just-- I'm tired. I'm done with one thing. It shouldn't have to be like this. And also, I see still to this day between people such a tremendous amount of fear. And I believe it's that fear which gets expressed as anger. What are your thoughts there?

One of the things about lockdown and COVID-19 that really inspired me is I have a friend of mine who has her own-- her name is Impor. And she runs a food business called Food I Love You. And during lockdown, she opened up a soup kitchen for the people around the community. And Impor is not the only person that has, during this time, made it her business to make sure that where she can, she will extend herself just to make other people's burden a little bit lighter, just ensuring that they have at least one meal a day, one nutritious meal a day. I've seen countless of those stories, people donating to the COVID-19 fund, people being able to access their patriotism. I work with another creative Teppu Jeans. And we did a collaboration between the Constitution Health Trust and Teppu to create We The People t-shirts. And as you know, preamble to the Constitution starts with the words We The People. And they were sold at Woolworths. And to seeing people wear those t-shirts during this time with pride. And just seeing people being able to swerve as life was throwing at us all these unexpected twists and turns and people being able to handle those corners, and not just handle them, but see about other people and where they can help.

That's really been-- and some of the creative projects that I have seen spring up at Constitution Health. We've been working with young creatives trying to create opportunities for them. Even now, as we speak, Constitution Health is doing a creative uprising workshop. Well, it's a whole week. And these young people, some of them currently don't have jobs, but they are creatives. They have something to give. Finally, there's an opportunity to be able to help Constitution Health in a creative way and in a way that could be beneficial for them. So there are glimpses of what makes us great. And I try and focus on those. I try and focus on what I can do in my sphere of influence. And I think that it's OK to tap out. It's OK to be tired at some point. It's OK to sit down and let somebody else go into the game while you recover. But I think that I believe in a sense of duty. I really do. I really believe that as long as there are people who are not free, that we all have work to do. And I think that part of it has to be-- we have to be self-starters. You need to articulate for yourself what your values are and what kind of world you want to live in. And then in the other column, say what you can do within your sphere of influence to make the world just a little bit better.

So I think, for me, I've seen overwhelming goodness. Otherwise, this country would have completely descended into their abyss if it wasn't for that. If you look outside, if you drive from Santin to Pretoria, there's still law and order in this country. There's some people that break the law. But overwhelmingly, people obey traffic lights. People drive cautiously in consideration of others. The world is moving and flowing in a particular way. There's still services that we get and all those things. And there's certain little things that work, but we take for granted. My garbage bin was collected yesterday on time and all those things. So there's a way that the world functions that lets me know that most of us are really committed to an ordered society and to one where life can be better for all of us. Otherwise, we would have been a failed state, would have been annihilated a long time ago. So there is this tension between two opposing forces. And I think that the last couple of years for me have proved that those who believe in the vision of the Constitution, they're pulling just a little bit stronger. Otherwise, we would descend into complete chaos. And for me, the court is one of the places that give me that inspiration.

And it features a lot in the progress part of the book. The court works. And we saw it work even under the president's rumor years. We were able to block certain things that if they were not blocked, who knows what the consequences would have been. So we've got constitutional instruments and mechanisms that are working the way that they're supposed to work. Otherwise, we wouldn't have a country to speak of or to fight for. Yeah, very, very true. I made a statement earlier on about fear. And I want to ask you about that. But also, one of the things that I've been saying for many years now is I believe in something that I call the silent majority. And that's normal every day. Dare we call them middle class people who want to get along. They want to be able to work. They want to be able to bring up their children. They want to build some kind of a lifestyle for themselves. And I'm talking about this majority across the board. And yet, we still have this fear. And we still don't really interact with each other. Is this a thing? Have you noticed this as well? Do we still have a lot of fear? Or was it just me that's feeling this? No, I think that's true. And that's part of the work that I'm doing now as part of my consultancy, including society.

How do you create connectivity between people and dialogue? And you demystify the other. And you actually see that we have a lot in common. I think people are scared, but to me, fear is not a valid excuse. There's so many scary things that we do in the world. But the fear never stops us from doing them. If you think of getting into a car, if you think of the risks that we take, whether it's in our professional lives, personal lives, even having children, I think is a risk, but we do it anyway. So I think saying I'm scared, I understand that. But it's not justification for not doing better and actually reaching out to people and educating yourself and trying to empathize and put yourself in the position of other people and trying to understand them. And that's one of the things that I hope to accomplish with the book, that when someone reads it, it's an honest account of what my world view is. And I don't want people to be scared of that view. I wanted to incite a conversation and curiosity. And I want people to ask me the questions that you've been asking me and realizing that there's nothing to be scared of. It's just relating to another human being. I've had the pleasure of doing that with so many acquaintances that I've met over the years who've had completely different life experiences.

And I've met that with curiosity. I've never made, hopefully, I've never made anyone feel ashamed of being who they are. It's just about understanding how it is that people come to be who they are. And I think that people don't have fear of the other. I think they sometimes have the fear of saying the wrong thing and the fear of the consequences of saying the wrong thing. And hopefully, we can create an environment where the cost of being honest doesn't lead to someone being villainized and rather leads to productive conversations. And honesty is not the same as reallessness and just pure hurtfulness in terms of some of the things that people say. But there are things that we haven't even discovered that are offensive to people. I'm learning every day that there's certain things that I can't say or do or whatever it is. And instead of feeling like, oh, I can never say anything. I must just keep quiet because I don't want to get into trouble. I try and strike up a conversation where I can understand more and educate myself more and actually find commonality with people that I perceive to be different. So yes, there is a fear that people have. But I don't think fear is a good enough excuse.

Otherwise, are you going to shut yourself off from the rest of the world? I think you just have to try, even if you make mistakes and if you pay for those mistakes. But at least you're doing something. Fantastic. We're almost out of time, Laura. So I've got two questions for you. The first one being some advice for somebody who's listening either to this broadcast or to the podcast. What advice would you give them? And then the second part is, what's next for Luando? I think the advice I would give to people is to-- I would encourage people to be visionaries and to be dreamers. Just imagine-- have the audacity to imagine what South Africa can be despite the evidence to the contrary.

I think when I think back to the '90s and watching footage of Nelson Mandela being sworn in and how not even just the country but the rest of the world came together for that moment, if you look at Mandela's inauguration alone, even countries that were feuding with one another, put that aside for that day, I don't think it can be a matter of putting it aside for the day. But I think we can actually sustain that. We can sustain our unity if we work at it like a muscle. So I think be visionaries that allow you to see beyond current circumstances. Paint a horizon for yourself and try and live your life in a way that makes everything better than you found it. As cheesy as that sounds. And whatever your talents are, they are useful, especially if you do them in service of the country. So whether you're a creative or not-- I think actually everyone is a creative. But whatever your calling is in life, I think if you do that with care and integrity and if you work hard at your own craft, I think that automatically makes the world better. Albie Sachs says to me, I don't need for you to dodge bombs like I used to. I just need for you to do your job well. So I would encourage everyone to just do their jobs well and with care.

And I think the result of that automatically means South Africa is just a little bit better because of that. And then in terms of what's next for me, I hope to still write. I hope to grow my business, including society, by creating more dialogues for my clients and more experiences that allow them to connect. I want to be part of the conversation that will help turn our private institutions into ones where everyone can belong. That's what I'm currently focused on. And I think I want to continue my work at Constitution Hill. Our big ambition is to build a museum for the Constitution at Constitution Hill, where people can learn the unknown stories of how our Constitution was negotiated, and not just in the 1890s, but its long history. So yeah, I hope to write another book. I think the next one will be just a little bit more different. But right now, my immediate concern is that I hope that what I have written, and I hope that the book itself can find resonance amongst South Africans, the people that I wrote it for, and even beyond our borders, I think that would be a true blessing for me. Wonderful stuff. Well, Luando, I can tell you that it is an amazing, in my opinion, an amazing piece of writing.

I would suggest you go out and get the book. It's available at all good bookstores. I believe it's available online as well. Get the book, read it, and just start off your day and go, what can I do today? How can I make a difference today? My special guest, Luando Carcel, thank you so much for taking the time out and having a chat to us. I love stories, and I love us being able to tell stories. And hopefully, this story will make a little bit of a difference in somebody's life. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. There we go. That was my special guest, Luando Carcel. And we're talking about her book, Made in South Africa. That wraps it up for this episode of What's Involved. To each and every one of you, thank you for listening.