Game2Change — Gamification Of Learning In The Workplace

As we do each and every Monday night at this time, it is time for what's involved. An absolute pleasure to be with you. I got some fantastic guests in studio tonight. First and foremost, Radio Virgins, which is always fun, because then I enjoy terrorizing them, so that's great. They are from a company called Game to Change. You've got the owner here, Deirdre. How's it, Deirdre? Good to have you with us. Hi, David. And also the project manager, Daniella. How's it, Daniella? Hi. Good to have you guys here. Nice and close to the microphones. Like I said, please. Great. Okay. So let's first and foremost start off. What is Game to Change? So, David, we are a learning and change consultancy. What we do is we create game-based learning and change, where we take various content areas and subjects that companies want to give to their employees. And we create games whereby they learn through that. And what we found is that people respond to games. Games have been in our culture, in our civilization, for centuries. And we're actually hardwired to respond to games. So when you combine that with learning and change, you get a very powerful formula. And you create something immersive that has an impact on how they learn, take on new content, change their behaviors, and hopefully has an impact back in the workplace.

Sounds absolutely fantastic. And I mean, if I think back to a lot of stuff that we do in the training environment as well, we use storytelling. So games and storytelling very, very much a part of it. So how did we get to Game to Change? I mean, you obviously didn't wake up one morning and go, "Okay, I've got an idea. Let me do that." There must have been a journey. What was your journey? Yes, yes. So, David, I was a change training consultant working in a lot of IT, SAP projects, process projects, designing, learning, and having to take very dry content and create something engaging, fun that people would actually sit up and take notice of. And what I did was I started to build games into my training. And every time I went into a workshop and we facilitated this, people came alive. They became engaged. They found their personalities. They learned better. And we got really good feedback. And I did this over a couple of years. And then I realized that this really has huge potential. And I had the opportunity in 2013 to build an end-to-end game for an IT induction program for Parastatal, which we did. And it was very successful. And the game really took people right from the start right to the end and taught them about the organization, gave them various skills in that process.

It was rolled out over three months. And I made the decision to take this approach and to take this to market. OK. So from 2013, you ran that program for about a year, you said? Yes. Yes. And then you were like, OK, this is now going to be my real job. This is going to be my real job, though everyone thought I was crazy and mad at the time to do this. How has it been for you up until now? I mean, I know from my own experience, starting your own business is probably the most exciting, scariest thing you will ever do. It's probably been one of the most character-developing experiences of my life. It's been one of the most fulfilling experiences, but also one of the most challenging. And I think I found out things about myself that I don't know if I would have if I hadn't been on this journey. Awesome. Daniela, how long have you been with the business? I've been there for just over a year now. OK. You've got a background. I mean, project manager, it sounds intimidating in and of itself. You've got a background in psychology, am I correct? Yes. So what is your role there in the business? So basically, I just make sure that everything happens when it needs to happen. I oversee the whole project from beginning to end.

I liaise with clients, and I just make sure that our product is really top of the range. OK. And you guys, obviously, do you work together, do you present together this training? I mean, there must be a certain amount of facilitation. Yes. Excuse me while I put my voice teeth back in. Lots of facilitation then. Yes. So I hope DOJ facilitate the sessions as well. And yeah. OK. So facilitating sessions the whole night. Now, you talk about games, OK? I think we're going to talk a little bit more about the kind of games and some of the clients that you guys have got. But we'll do that in just a little bit. It is Mix 93.8 legendary radio. It is a Monday night. What's involved is what it is. David Waters on Mix 93.8. Mix 93.8 legendary radio. What's involved? And my guest in studio from Game to Change, we've got Deidre and Daniela. And we were having a chat about-- every time somebody says to me, gamification, it sounds like something you do for video games and stuff like that. But this is taking serious training issues and communication style issues, converting it into this funny environment. Because I was just about to say to you while we were off here, I've always thought my office was one of the most fun places to work at.

But yours must be awesome. How many of you in the office? There's three of us. It's very unorthodox. We work in bursts of energy when we have projects. It's very creative. And we work in a shared office space. That's very interesting. And everyone else says to us, we have one of the most unorthodox working environments. But it works for us. So you're lying in one of these places where there's lots of little businesses there as well. So they get to stare at the windows through the windows. They see our game boards coming out, and us demoing our games. And it's a lot of interest around it. Unfortunate. I've got my own office, which is away from a whole lot of other people. We have got management services just across from us. So they handle all the accounting and bookkeeping, et cetera, for a lot of companies. And they continue sticking their heads around the door and looking at the-- I mean, my programmer, my web developer, looks like a cross between a skateboarder, a Rustafarian, and a metalhead. He looks like somebody hit him with a wet comic tattooed all over there. And people stick their heads in and look at these strange people there. But it's fun. And I think that's what it's all about.

So you were talking about earlier, and we were talking about what exactly do you do. And you did stuff you said for a parastatal. What sort of companies do you-- does this kind of thing work for what sort of company? Why would I come to you, Deirdre, and say, Deirdre, please, can you help me? I need to do X. What sort of company? So we work across the board. We worked with large companies. So just to give you an example, we've done customer service in frontline, airline. We've done orientation and induction programs in banking and finance. We've done customer service for a large telco, which was rolled out throughout Africa, and another customer service in a media company that also went throughout Africa. And recently, we've done a culture and change game in mining. And it's actually been rolled out into eight operations. Mining, culture, and change. What is the other person that works in the office? Also a lady? So her name's Laura, and she does our design and creates our name. So three women going into the mining industry. That's it. It's supposed to be interesting. It was very interesting. I actually had to do-- we had to do a site visit, and we had to actually see what the environment looked like.

And yeah, we definitely stood out. Did you at least demand pink mining heads? I mean, really? I actually did find a pink mining head, believe it or not. Awesome. OK. So these guys came to you, and they went and said, we want to get this whole culture change kind of thing going. Take me through the process. And Daniella, you can jump in as well if you need to. But what is the process? I come to you and go, you know, this is my problem. We're going to go through value changes, culture change. How does that process look? How do you guys get to design the game? Because I'm certain it's not one size fits all. No. No. That's-- why do people come to us? Because most people are bombarded with information. There's so much coming their way. So you need to do things differently. You need to do it in an immersive environment. So you actually take in new information. And I think that is one of the reasons, and that's why gaming and simulation and simulated gaming work so well. So what we do with our clients is they come to us. We've gotten either a piece of training that they want to get across, and they want it to be effective. And they give us the ideas. And we really go into a collaborative process with them, where we put together-- we listen to them.

We show them a couple of ideas around it. And then we put together a prototype of a game. And we do a thin slice of what that game would look like. We get a sample of their staff, or our target audience. And we get them to play it. And we actually have someone observing, taking notes. We also have the players give us feedback afterwards in terms of how it worked, how they found the experience, what could be improved. And then we sit down from that workshop, and we actually design the game. Now, you're saying-- you keep on-- because you're kind of skirting around this thing, because you say we design the game. But it cannot be easy. I mean, I was just thinking now, you did a mining project for a mining company. So that was right down from the guys at grassroots level, right up to the top management. And do you get them all in the same room at the same time, or do you work in-- how does it work? So we work in pockets, or we work in looking at different audiences. And we can do iterations of the game to suit different levels, because obviously there would be different language that we'd have to use. We'd also, in terms of complexity, we'd need to rank it up a bit for more senior. So it just depends.

And it depends. And it is bespoke. So we do design it. There could be iterations of that. OK. Daniela, give me an example. As soon as I do, it doesn't want to do it. Give me an example of a game. Just a game, an example. So I don't know. Am I going to have to build matchstick houses? What am I going to have to do? OK. So basically, we have these huge-- an example is a huge vinyl game board, where we have participants getting to teams, and then move along the game boards. And you land on a category, which we then customize for that client. And they'll pull a question. And the question can either be a role play that is based on their environment. It can be a quick activity. It could be terminology. We even incorporate some limbo dancing in our games, just to get the energy up. Oh, OK. Limbo dancing. I don't know if I'd be able to make that one, but anyway, yeah. So the questions and the activities in the game are all based on the training or the content that needs to be given across. Fantastic. OK. Now, how long does this take? I mean, is it one day training, two days? How do you guys structure? Again, I suppose dependent on need. So we've done games that are an hour and games that are a full three days, that run over three days.

Obviously, there's other activities in between that, but it's customized for how much we want to cover, how much skill we want to get across. But what we're finding is a lot of our clients want things that are shorter, more impactful. So they're looking at two hours, four hours, and then they complement it with other forms of training, other forms of content. And our game really brings things together and creates that learning. Now, if I've played the game, if I've been one of your clients and played the game, do I get to keep the game and replay it? Do I have facilitators? How does that work? Yes. So we design it so that we can upskill internal facilitators or change agents. And we take them through a process of how to facilitate. And then they get a toolkit, which is branded with their company. And then they get to use it, whether that be in teaming sessions or in workshops following thereafter. It's amazing, though. I mean, if I think back to the days of the sort of traditional boardroom, and it's one of my pet hates to this day. And if I ever go out and do any communication training or anything, people are horrified when you don't want an overhead projector or a whiteboard, because there's nothing worse than death by PowerPoint.

And you guys are doing it to play the games. OK, I don't know about the role playing for me. People love role playing. But that's also part of that primal need, that game playing, that interaction, that storytelling. That's exactly what it's all about. And for each and every person, or for each and every instance, you design something different, which is amazing. I mean, you guys must get to learn so much about so many different-- Danielle is nodding her head. Definitely. And it's all about mining than you ever thought you would have to know in your life. It's wonderful stuff, though. And we're going to talk about it now. The important thing is, I think, is, OK, so you deal currently with sort of what? The larger corporates. That's who the current model is, OK? So the question that I always ask on the show to people that I have in is, that's great. I mean, we're catering to the corporates. What about this small, medium enterprise? What's happening there? You guys doing anything for that? So we've recently actually taken all our learnings over the last few years. And we've created two games around companies who want to improve their customer service, who want to build an induction program.

And what we do is-- it's a type of off the shelf, but they can input relevant information around the company and customer service, because there are certain things that are standard across that, and they can actually have a game and have this re-engaging form of learning at a cost that's affordable to them. Sounds absolutely fantastic. I'll tell you what we're going to do, OK? Just after this, we're going to come back. I want to find out a bit more about that, because that's the part I'm fascinated in. If I'm a small business and I want to learn how to think a little differently, what do I need to do? It is what's involved. We're chatting to Deirdre and Daniela from Game2Change, and we'll find out more about learning labs, I believe, when we come back. David Waters on Mix 93.8. Mix 93.8 and a stolen dance. Do you do much dancing in your trainings? We do a lot of dancing. You know, you said the limbo thing, so I thought you get to shake your money maker a little bit. OK. Cool. It is what's involved on Mix 93.8. We are chatting to two of the ladies from Game2Change. Deirdre, who is the owner, Daniela, does all the project managing. When we talk about – because project managers are different when we talk about projects.

I mean, the traditional idea of a project manager is somebody in dungarees with a hard hat that's doing construction stuff, but that's not it. I mean, not necessarily. It's the projects that you handle, so it's your title, the different projects that you take on. OK. So I was saying to you just before the break, we were having a bit of a chat about what you do, and do you do it for small and medium enterprises? And you said, yes, you do. So let's just recap. What do we call what you're doing for the smaller companies? So, David, what we want to do is we want to give people the tools and also the creative problem solving of what we've gathered over the years and create a learning lab, which is really a workshop where we're sharing with them design thinking. So we use a lot of elements of design thinking in putting our games together and our experiential learning and give them exposure to this, get them to play, experiment, try out new solutions, share between people from various industries, and actually put a prototype and get feedback on that. So is this specifically – Daniela, maybe you can answer this – specifically if somebody's got a product that they're wanting to get to market, or can it just be a challenge in their business?

So it can be a challenge in their business, even for personal growth. If you want to be more creative in how you solve problems, in how you tackle your work. OK. I'm starting to like this. So when is it? Let's talk about that to start off with. So we're running it on the 17th of May, and it's a workshop, and then we have two online sessions over May and June where each of our participants actually puts their prototype and shares it and gets feedback on it. So again, you go back to prototype, but I mean, I've got – let's use my business. I am a digital content creator. Why would I want to come onto your training course, and what would you give me? You said I can learn experiential thinking – OK, let's un-buzzword it, OK? Talk to me like I was six. OK. So before we've been very much around design has been functionally based, and the move is towards being around your end user, understanding your end user, understanding their pains, what they want to solve. And there's a methodology in terms of how you understand the end user and how you start to solve their problem with your product or your service and matching the two together. OK. So we would start there. How long does this course take?

So we're doing a day, and then there's two follow-up sessions. OK. Yes, you mentioned. So it's an entire day. Saturday, I'm assuming. No, this is on a Thursday. On a Thursday. Yes. So we're going to have to take the day off work. Yes. OK. I work with a tough boss, though, so I'll have to see if he'll let me off. But I mean, that's a day that – and this is now suitable for anybody. Anybody that wants to – Daniela, as you say, even if somebody like me who considers myself – I employ creative people. So I consider myself probably as creative as a brick. But if I want to learn how to be more creative – so let's say I want to come up and I kind of want to see in my digital content space, I want to know why my clients would buy from me. This is the kind of thing we would go through in this fun, exciting – with a bunch of other entrepreneurs. Yes. Yes. OK. And the biggest thing with user end experiences for you, you'd have to – OK. She's – have a cough. It's fine. Don't worry. We switched off everything. It's cool. Don't worry. We'll make the noises. So that's fun. So with anybody like that, are you ready to jump in there quickly? Yes. Yes, I am. OK. So with that is – what we wanted to bring to this is we wanted people to actually also share between different industries, different companies.

Because I think most people feel quite isolated in what they're doing. And our learning lab is about sharing that, sharing experiences, new ideas. So what you might have in your mind, you might have someone else's problem and how they're looking at addressing it, and might trigger something on how you could address your problem. So it's for individuals. It could also be for companies who want to send a group of people. And it's about creativity and collaboration in that process. Fantastic stuff. Now, the big question, the $20 million question, I believe you guys are very generously offered to give away one seat to the learning lab. That's correct. And that's valued at 4,500,000 rand, am I correct? That's correct. So being the creative bunch that you are, there's a bit of PT involved. So if somebody wants to attend this learning lab, what do they need to do? Let's go through that very quickly. OK. So we've got a Facebook page called Game Number 2 Change, so Game 2 Change. And we've posted a picture of a group of people playing a game. And what we'd like to do if anyone is interested in being part of the learning lab is to comment and put the best, the most interesting caption below that post.

OK. So the most interesting caption below the post. OK. So Game 2 Change, Facebook page. That's correct. That's what it is. Game, the number 2 change. Yes. All lowercase, Game 2 Change. Check out that picture. Put a caption there if it is the most fun or the most interesting or creative. That's correct. OK. All right. So it is subjective, but hey. You've got a bit of work in there, but 4,500 is the prize that you are going to win. We're going to talk a little bit more about what Game 2 Change does when we come back in just a little while. David Waters on Mix 93.8. Cheering to the ladies from Game 2 Change, Deirdre and Daniela in the studio with me. And I'm absolutely fascinated by this. So the concept is, what is the learning lab concept thing going to do? Is it going to sort of be the same thing as sort of a board game kind of thing that you're doing or you're bringing what elements? Tell me, tell me, tell me. I want to know. Yes. So, I mean, you can design a game coming out of this, but we're really giving you an opportunity to expand your thinking. And we're giving you a new way of thinking, a methodology, design thinking. And we're giving you an environment just to do something different, to play, experiment, look at your challenges from a different perspective.

And then what we say approach itself is to build a rough solution around it. Okay. Now, just take me through this, okay? I arrive there on the Thursday morning and I have my coffee and pickies as we get there. I walk into the training room and I sit down with a bunch of other people. What am I going to expect? Am I going to have toys to play with? Of course you're going to have toys to play with. Okay. So what kind of things are we... Come on. You got to help me out here, okay? I know I'm not the only one that's going, it sounds fascinating, but I don't know what these women are going to want me to do. So you talk about giving us these methodologies. We're not going to play board games or are we going to play board games? I'm very competitive. I need to know. We are going to have games. We're going to play... Can I win and do I win a prize if I win? There is a prize at the end of the program for the best design thinker and the best solution. And we're also going to give you tools. So there's six steps to how do you understand your user through listening, empathy, ideation, prototyping. And we're actually going to show you and give you tools and actually not just lecture you on it, but you're going to practice doing that in the lab.

Okay. Now I know beforehand and we said, and I said to you initially, don't bore me with stats and figures, but I'm actually interested now because I know from my background, from the communication side, the kind of figures it takes and what sort of learnings happen. And we talk about experiential learning. You talk about immersive learning. What are those retention figures like? Have you got some of those stats for us? I mean, how much better is it? Because I know that I can go and sit through an entire two hour presentation and not pay attention to a single word and still not in all the right places. And everybody thinks I'm paying attention. And if you held a gun to my head afterwards, I would not even be able to tell you or care what they said. So what are those sort of stats if you make it this experiential immersive learning? So I think just, I just want to mention one point is that adult learning as adults, we become more and more rigid in how we thinking it's just, and what we want to do is create an environment where you, what they call infant brain patterns. And this is letting go of what you know. And we, even though we're not conscious of it, we quite attached to how we see the world.

Oh yes. So, you know, it's about creating a space and this is what games do really well is it creates that kind of, through narratives, through focus, through exploration, you get into that open-minded space and you're actually able to take in new, new content, new skill through this process. And, and that's what we also want to do in the learning lab. So some of the stats that, and there's a lot of stats that have been done worldwide around this, but when a game is included in a training program, they had a control group and then they had a group where they included a game, and this was for a university, and they measured a 40 percent increase in the average school. They've also shown that people are three times more likely to persevere through a learning difficulty when there's a game involved or built into that process. Okay. Now, Daniella, you've sat through some of, some of these things. You've got a background in, in psychology. How resistant are people to change? Because I'm just thinking about myself. It sounds fascinating, but if I go and sit down in, in, in your training room at the learning lab and, and you start asking me to do strange things, I mean, it's going to take me a while, I think.

Do you do icebreakers? Yes. Yes, we do. Okay. So an example of one and it better not be the limbo. Do not limbo. So we have a really cool coconut dance as an icebreaker that we do, just people like in the groove. But in terms of resistance, I think people are very resistant to change, but as soon as you're in a group of people together and you're playing a game, you're in that fun element, you know, you, you're relaxed and you do become a bit of a child and your personality comes out and you're more eager to try new things and make a fool of yourself because we're all having fun. We're all laughing together anyway. See, this is the big thing and I've noticed this as well, is that I don't mind, but just don't make me, you know, I don't want to sort of lose this, but I mean, it must be so incredible if you've got various levels of an organization taking part in this kind of thing. And you know, for you to see your, your, your MD or your, your general manager also doing the chicken dance, for example, or the coconut dance, so I just had a Monty Python moment. As you said, coconut dance, I was Monty Pythoning there much better. Your feedback from that, I mean, how, how has that been? Because you've, you've worked with several, and I know we said we're not going to name drop, but you've worked with several fairly large clients.

That's correct. And, and the feedback there. You know what, and this is, you know, because it is challenging bringing a game and bringing it into an organization. But it is so worth it because what happens is, is people leave their titles, they leave some of their work stress behind, and they start to connect in a game. And we've seen people who are senior and people who are junior come together, answer questions, and people who are maybe a little bit shy, who actually come out of their shell and actually get seen and recognized. And at the end of the day, you know, for me, it's about creating that connection and creating that recognition of people in the organization. And that is about engagement and, and that's what we all want. Fascinating stuff. Okay. So your, your learning lab, it's going to be the inaugural learning lab. It is, it is. That's happening on the 17th of May, you say, it's a Thursday, the 17th. And a little bird told me that it's booking up really, really fast. Do you, you have places available still? We've got very few, but we do, but we will be running more of them. We haven't expected the uptake, so that's been really great, but we will be scheduling more throughout the year.

All right. And if you'd like to win yourself a seat at the learning lab on Thursday, the 17th, where about, sir, is this happening? This is happening in Santin, so we just, depending on numbers, we're just finalizing the venue on Wednesday. So that'll go out as well. But you'll obviously, you'll be, you'll let know. So what the guys have done is on the game to change Facebook page, there is a photo or picture that you've posted. And if you want to win a seat there, you have to caption the picture. Then either Deirdre or Daniela will be in touch with you via Facebook, I'm assuming. And they will then let you know if you have one or not. That's one way of getting in. The price of admission, four and a half thousand rand, that's for the full day of all that learning that you're going to be doing. And then you said there's two follow-up online trainings, mini trainings, that's in the rest of May and into June. Correct. Okay. So I think it's absolutely fantastic, certainly something I'd be, I'd be very interested in going to. And if you're going to go to it, I'd love to hear from you as well. Ladies, perhaps what we should do is after the 17th sometime, let us know how it went. And maybe we can bring one of the participants in here, somebody who had maybe the best idea for the day.

Definitely. Bring them in. We can have a chat about that. I think it's been absolutely fantastic. If people want to get hold of, of you guys, Deirdre, what's the best way to do that? So we have a website, game2change.co.za. There's also an email. If you go onto the website, there's our contact details on that and our email address. So you can pop that through to us. We also have the Facebook page. Fantastic stuff. So there we go. Game2Change, either on Facebook or Game2Change, the game and the number two change.co.za, am I correct? That's correct. Fantastic stuff. And ladies, I want to say thank you so much for taking time out on your long weekend and on a Monday night and coming to say how's it to us. If you did enjoy this, don't forget the podcasts are available. In this case, it'll be available on Wednesday on what's involved, which is www.what'sinvolved.com. David Watts on Mix 93.8.