Andie Brockelhurst — Online Marketing Wizard Steps To Starting An Online Business

What's involved on this Monday evening and all of the tech gods are smiling at us because on the other end of the line we have internet marketing legend and all-around whiz kid Andy Brocklehurst. How are you Andy? I'm great how are you? Fantastic now that I get to talk to you and technology does not let us down love it when that happens. Fantastic. Good so one thing we're not going to be talking about tonight and we just need to get that out of the way very very soon in the conversation is the crickets. So now that that's out of the way yeah yeah we won't mention it at all. Nothing not a word shall be said. Anyway Andy we last managed to speak a while ago and there's been all sorts of bits and pieces in between but for those who haven't heard Andy yet Andy is one of the founders of a great group and it's it's one that's given me immeasurable help even though for a lot of the time I'm a bit of a lurker there. It's called Society 11 now Andy's been in the online business for many many years I think you you mentioned last time you started out this whole online thing when it was still mail order. Pretty much yeah I mean before before there was really an internet to speak of we had things like Fido net and bulletin board services and I used those to advertise products which were then sent out in the mail on CD or floppy disk. Yeah how things have changed but one of the things that has changed is that it is a lot easier to sort of get online these days and to sort of sell products and get your products or services out to the world having said that though whilst it is easier I found it at least for me it's it's been quite a journey to this point in time which is one of the reasons I wanted to have a chat to you because a lot of people you see it all over the place so you hear about people making thousands tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of dollars online and we here in South Africa you know could do with a couple of dollars every now and again but the whole sort of concept of where to start is always a massive massive problem so let's kick off this evening and go where do you start with something like that? I think first and foremost you start with something that you would least have an interest in preferably quite a passion for because I think the mistake a lot of people make is they come in and they go right I want to make some money I don't know how to do that I know I'll just sell these reports on how to make money which doesn't make any sense they're not really imparting anything of any value they're just taking something that's out there and regurgitating it enough it works whereas if you start with a topic you love number one you're already going to know a little bit about it I would hope number two you can position yourself as an expert in very very short time and you'll find it sustainable because again it's something you like it's and that's where I would start and then the next question is how can I help people and when you find ways that you can help people the product ideas will come naturally okay and that is that is some really good advice but when I started with doing this whole thing and I went down that particular rabbit hole and many other rabbit holes and I got sucked in and I bought I think I've got a hard drive full of products and services and the latest and the greatest and this hack and that hack and the latest way to climb Google rankings etc etc and just nothing ever ever worked and yourself and some of the guys in society 11 said first thing to do cancel all of that crap and concentrate on a couple of things one of those things is building a website because you know you need to have an online presence am I correct that a website is a good way to go I know a lot of people go make money online now with no list but it never seems to work okay so even if you want to just be what we might term an affiliate marketer so let's say you you don't really have it in you to create products but you have interest in various topics and you could build an audience around that interest in which case what you got to do is position yourself as the authority because as an affiliate marketer what you'll find end up doing is as soon as you get a lead you're sending it off to an affiliate offer and if they buy or maybe even if they don't they are now been subjected to somebody who is an authority on the topic whereas if you set yourself up as an authority first which means you have a what we might call a hub site which is like your website that just talks a little bit about you and and how you can help people and now you've immediately elevated yourself just by having the website there okay that makes that makes a lot of sense because that was one of the glaring flaws that that it struck me when I was trying to get online and start something online is you know if I go to all the trouble of getting people to subscribe to an email list for example then I promptly hand them over to somebody else and they jump onto their email list and then as far as it goes for me thank you very much for playing am I correct in assuming that yes you are yes and that's why but there are alternative ways of of doing affiliate marketing and things so you there is no reason why you can't do your lead capture with a landing page which puts them onto your list and then sends them to a series of free articles and advice that's all on your website and that's all you do to begin with and now that builds you as the credible expert now two weeks in when you email them and say hey I found this really cool product that helps with this and makes this easier they if they go when they buy or if they go and they don't but yes that they now see another expert being positioned but they are being sent there on your authority and it means that you're still to them the authority and therefore they're gonna stay on your list as well and in fact they probably will always check with you before they buy good points okay so so let's talk websites very very quickly when when I first started this I was in a position where I had web developers and graphic designers etc etc etc that all went one way and suddenly I was staring at the the possibility of having to build a website myself and it absolutely terrified me and I know one of the things you're going to probably say is outsource which we can talk about but if you are hell-bent on doing it all yourself initially either because of funds time whatever the case may be because we know if you want to start a business online you need you know two things you need time and money and you know whatever you need more of you need less of one and more of the other so if you've got a lot of time you might not have a lot of money if you've got money you don't need that much time but where does one start I would think for your for what I would term a hub site you pretty much just want to use something like a blog is fine so work using WordPress is a good start because that will give you a site that you can post information upon and you can write posts and write about yourself and have your sign-up forms and everything else you need there so a really basic WordPress install and I'm not I'm not a WordPress fan by any stretch of the imagination is it for too many things what WordPress fundamentally is and it is very good at is being a blogging platform so if you focus on it for that and make that like your hub site that introduces you and what you're an expert in it that way you just going in each day and week or whatever and doing a post it's a lot easier than having to design a web page all the time yeah okay well that makes sense and and and something that you know despite the advertising out there and you've told this to me on numerous occasions is it doesn't happen overnight you're not going to get you know it's not a case of build it and they will come you have to build it and do some work absolutely yeah yeah sorry I mean if it's no different from if you were to decide that you want to open a sweet shop and you go and you buy a sweet shop you load it up with sweets and but it's down some back alley that no one ever walks past you don't put any signs up to tell people are there no one's ever gonna know it's there exactly you've got a you've got to build it out and then you've got to call people in right we're going to talk about that and how to maybe if you have an interest find some pre-made products that you can make your own which is it's another way of doing things we'll check more about that when we come back my guest on what's involved tonight internet marketing legend from society 11 it's Andy Brocklehurst we'll be back with him in just a bit what's involved this Monday night my guest on the line with me Andy Brocklehurst we talking starting your own online business Andy while we have him on the line with us so Andy we've sorted out websites I mean you go to WordPress and you can literally set up your your site there what I would suggest well you would suggest as well I'm fairly certain is you need to first register a domain so that's register your business name now obviously it's better if it's if it has something to do with your business or is it okay because I see you've got Andy Brocklehurst.com yeah now I've done things both ways and this is the way that works for me and I think I think one of the important things to realize about internet marketing in general is while there are sort of guidelines and things there's no hard and fast rules so what works for someone might not be the way someone else wants to do it when I started up because I came from a court and I traded under that but then everyone kind of online that talked about my products still talked about all that thing Andy Brocklehurst put out so it became a natural progression in the IM world for me to become Andy Brocklehurst.com and just brand everything from there I just sort of followed I was led by my customers a bit in that respect but other people if you want to be sort of somewhat anonymous and high beyond a company and that's more your thing or you want to create more corporate look it also depends on the kind of people you're going after okay makes sense but but so you make the choice you register your domain and then obviously you need to get a service provider an internet service provider somewhere where your website can live yes we've got several of those in South Africa I'm not going to go into them right now you use a couple of international ones but once you get first just pick one at first you know don't worry too much about it just get it done it's more important all right we just got a message in goes hi David and Andy please help me I'm at the point it's all show of overwhelming to get on the go MailChimp links leader pages which I now get by the way I'm frozen in all this fear and scared my ideas with terrible I did an online pewter course not to subscribers yet advice that's from Lager Park Parker so I've never heard of pewter so maybe you can help me I mean okay off you go Andy yes it can seem overwhelming if you don't have a goal in mind if if if you know what your product is now they mentioned they got lead pages and they've got it linked to MailChimp so they're part way there they've obviously got some kind of lead page that is putting people onto a list it seems to me and obviously I'm picking between the lines of someone's SMS message but yeah what it looks sounds to me like is what we call sort of fear paralysis more than anything else it's you reach a point where you just have to do it you know yeah you can't get put you can get all your things in a row and think oh it's and you can play the game where you convince yourself it's not quite perfect and I better just do this and this and this but there comes a point where you just have to go this is launch Freddy and I'm stepping out and I'm gonna put it out there and I'm gonna see what happens because here's the thing if you don't put product out there then you're guaranteed to not make sales yeah if you at least put it out there even with not the best sales material and even without the best support and even if it's not the best product the fact you've put it out there with a buy button you know you're now a hundred percent more likely to make a sale because you got a buy button in existence and you're aware ahead of most people because a lot of the time what happens and I've come across this as well as you get to a certain point and you just think I can't do this and then you have that you've described as well that paralysis through analysis and in my case what I wanted I wanted everything to be absolutely perfect and it's just not gonna happen so done is better than perfect I think absolutely all right so we're gonna give you know what I would suggest log is we're gonna give you the society 11 website address and I'd suggest hanging out there chatting to the guys there they are amazingly helpful and even though they've probably answered everything you think is a stupid question about a hundred times they never complain I was on another site the other day and then you be went on and asked a question and they got absolutely slated for asking the question and this doesn't happen with society 11 everybody's very very helpful they are however very direct so if your feelings are easily hurt then maybe avoid avoid asking the questions you don't want answers to you know surprisingly I mean a lot of I know people I don't understand the yet you know jumping on someone for asking a question thing and making them come across stupid that there's nothing to be gained from that by anyone really you know and so we do we do just answer but we answer directly so it's not to say we won't ever say we do realize you could just have googled that because amazing number of questions that people come to us with they go how do you do this and if you literally type in exactly what they are seen on in our group into Google and press enter the top result would you know get you the answer you needed so but obviously on things when it's you're working with something with someone's actual business and it's very personal and unique to them and it's so the smaller and finer details that we're able to help people hammer out in that group and you generally that they are a great group and what I found helpful is in terms of because as soon as you start getting into this online marketing or online business and you start searching that okay the people out there those people that watch the interwebs will take you down and you'll get marketed every last product on the face of the planet and in the guys they very often do reviews of the products and because they're more knowledgeable they've been in the business a lot longer it actually I found it very helpful I watch your reviews before I even think about hitting a bar button anyway and it makes a huge huge difference which brings us on to the next thing we've now got our bright shiny website alive it's up it's running we've built it and now we need to put content on it and I stumbled across something a while ago which was yet another minefield and another rabbit hole I went down called PLR which is private label rights but it's basically done for you content where do you stand on PLR because I think it can be helpful but I think it's also you need to be careful what you do there yeah as with anything else there is there's good and bad in the marketplace so originally the idea of TLR was a bit like white labeling in other you see a packet of vitamin C tablets on in various pharmacies it's all the same tablet they just got different brand names on the active ingredient is the same it's just vitamin C it you know them as long as the dosages are the same it doesn't matter which one you buy but some are packaged more attractive than others but they all come or most of them come from white labeling they come from companies that produce them in bulk with plain nothing and then these companies have their labels put on them and then they sell it as their own brand that's kind of what white labeling is and in the case of information and software it's exactly the same it's possible to take a product that somebody has produced a book or something and then rebadget repackage it and make it your own my personal preference with white label is number one you have to find good quality PLR that's the that's the toughest thing not all PLR is born equal there's a lot of rubbish out there but if you find the good stuff the next thing you should do is bearing in mind you should be working in in a niche that you like and you have some passion for so it isn't going to be a hardship to read through the PLR yourself because it's a topic you like and you'll make little changes you'll put your own comments in you'll put you put your own opinion in a couple of places now it starts to become more it becomes yours and so that's that's sort of my preferred way of working with PLR so there's some rewriting involved I don't like the idea and I don't think it works where you just or very rarely I will say because there have been the old case rarely is it you can take a product and just go right putting you cover on it and sell it it might only be writing an introduction and and a couple little tool tips inside but I think I think you you struck the nail on the head there when you said that it's got to be something that you're interested in because I've bought the most obscure PLR before I decided where I was going and what I wanted to do and I had no interest in it and when I looked at it it was as dry as sawdust and I just didn't care right and then largely through my own research and you guys as well I've stumbled across some great PLR and I've refined my ideas as to where I want to go and how I want to go and it makes a big difference but you're absolutely right you can't just buy it and slap it up on the website because especially if it's if it's cheap and dirty PLR chances are you know hundreds and if not thousands of other people are doing the same thing right okay now the good is gonna buy from you for a reason yeah that's the thing and that reason needs to be that you know you've taken a little bit more care than just slapping something up and that you've actually position yourself as the expert okay so now the good news is if I may say this because I know you're quite humble and you don't say things like this but amongst the members are in society you live in they do every now and again make some of their own products available as PLR with PLR rights and you give the society members a special deal yeah we well I mean the way that that works anyone that's a member of society that is also a product creator whether it be they create PLR or software or anything that there might be an interest for in the group we encourage them to run what we call a society 11 special curtain I don't take any commission or any cut of that at all the idea being that the person who's offering it for sale can afford to offer it at 50% discount because they're not paying affiliates so now our members get the best possible price the vendor still gets their money they're happy it's like it creates a win-win situation and you also have the added advantage that those things are run by curtain I first so there's never been we've never had a something come up that's you know just been junk anything that we've had questions about we've lined out with a vendor before the offers run and yet another thing that makes society 11 a great place to hang out and there's a couple of things going are we are we sort of are you running any specials at the moment Andy well there is we're still we are still running your coupon code and so if you go to society 11.com and when you get to the checkout if you put in I believe it's D watts yeah case I think it doesn't matter if I locate it capitalize it anyway yeah and if you hit apply then what we do is effectively we pay the entrance fee for you so you only pay good science 11 has a monthly fee involved for being a member but there's also like an entrance fee for the very first time you join and the reason for that is because it's loaded up with tons of software and tools and training and whatever and it's it would be a bit unfair if people could just wander in for one month's money and get everything and then go which they could do they'd be crazy to do that'd be missing out on the real value so it's there as a deterrent for that and it was well booked up with your coupon code will pay that entrance fee for them fantastic that's some great news so the coupon code D watts we'll talk more about that towards the end of the interview and we come back chatting to Andy Brocklehurst we've talked about your website creating that we've talked about maybe putting some PLR product out there where to find it society 11 great place to go to ask guys where to find it I've got some of my personal favorites now a lot of it found through you guys but when we come back we need to talk I think a little bit about this weird concept called list building and email auto responders and social media and where you got to be it's a massive topic I just want to touch on a couple of things when we come back what's involved this Monday evening my guest on the line with me Andy Brocklehurst internet marketing legend genius always I often get told I'm a legend in my own lunchtime and he's not though he certainly is one of the nicer guys I've met online saying we've talked about we've talked about websites getting your website started there is something and I glossed over it but it does have value is and that is called outsourcing so you can actually outsource a lot of this work to other people who specialize in it am I correct yes and really the rule of thumb for me is these days I have the because I built my business up over many years I'm now in a position where I can pick and choose what I do so I only really do the stuff I really love now so a lot of the time when you know sort of jobs come up and it's like oh that's an HTML job for a website I just pay someone else to do it I appreciate when you first start out you don't always have that luxury and also it does pay to understand a bit of the process so you should try and learn as much you know if you're going to be an internet marketer you should at least learn how the internet works and how to put a web page up and what the basics are just so that you'll never completely reliant on someone else but when there's jobs that you don't particularly love or you just want to outsource them because it'll get done you can focus on something else and get it done still get that job done just then outsourcing makes an awful lot of sense and there are places that you that you can go to on the internet up is it up worker I think I poor people power is another one although do you know I have found the majority of my outsources via Fiverr Fiverr does seem to be a very popular place to go okay so Fiverr.com and then you just type in web developer for example you go in you look for what it is that you want that you know you're not going to go over then and there's not really someone that's going to magically build you a website for $5 or anything but if if you're stuck on say you don't like the technical okay but you want to get WordPress installed you have to learn WordPress but you just need it installed and secure and put on your server and you're not sure how to do that rather than spend hours learning if it's not something that you have any interest in whatsoever you probably find someone that for five or ten or fifteen dollars will do all of that for you which let me tell you is somebody who's gone through that whole process several times now ten or fifteen dollars well worth it look I know what I'm doing a lot better now still don't consider myself a specialist yet long way to go but the weird thing is I've actually found myself enjoying it I love getting my hands dirty there so that's a lot of fun for me but now so let's assume we've got now our website up we've decided we're going to sell either some PLR or we're going to sell you know maybe our knowledge maybe we're going to write a manual on how to do something whether it be how to build model ships in bottles whatever the case may be now we've got to go out and we've got a market this we have to get people to see and to come and visit our website and maybe at a later date we can get into you know a bit of a chat I don't know if you'd recommend somebody else there but about search engine optimization that's still a very murky area to me but there are other ways of doing this and Facebook is one of them Twitter Instagram you know how would you go about getting people to sort of come to your page and say okay we think that you have some value on your page here let us now sign up for your newsletter let us join your mailing list where else would you go the answer the answer the question where do you go is where do the people that you can help hang out and wherever that is that is where you go so to give you an example my my partner has a craft business and she makes what I called they're called faux dermy heads which means they look like animal heads but they're not made out of any anything of them fabric and whatever and they look like the sort of trophy heads that people mount on walls hunters would now so she she makes these things and loves doing it and was like she loves making them but was like well how do I monetize it and where do the other people that like this sort of craft hang out and so she went and she joined all the groups that have crafters in and she and all the people that appreciate craft and now for her Instagram and Pinterest have been the two probably biggest sources of traffic and then third has been Facebook now for me in with what I do Facebook is huge Instagram forget it I've never worked out how there's no one there's no doesn't says not for me it just doesn't work for what I offer and what I do my audience don't have Instagram accounts at the moment so it's it's work out where the people are and then work out where they hide within that thing so obviously Facebook they'll be groups for it Pinterest is boards but you just need to go and start connecting with people that are going to have a similar interest and then don't go in jumping in all look I'm selling this and throwing your links in it you need to just get in there and take part then when you start dropping the odd link to hey I've built a website now yeah people will go over they'll see the sign up form if they want sign up they can do it if they want to look at your products they can do it and so I think what you're saying and and and I went at this also initially that the wrong way entirely is if you're planning on starting an internet or an online business don't start it when you are in desperate need of money because it's not something you know they I've been around the block there there are no silver bullets they really aren't I mean you will get marketed it all the time about products that can do this they can do that they can do the next thing and it was actually you Andy that that's it to me you know stop with the shiny objects and focus on a couple of the basics and don't come at it from a point of desperation because if you're desperate this does take time I mean just in terms of where I am I market a couple of things right now not making very much if any money however I'm building a lot of stuff and the what's involved show and podcast is one of those things but this is taking me two years plus to go to to the amount of followers that I have and the amount of people that'll talk to and that'll talk to me you know and then I'm now able to put out the podcast every single week the downloads are going up but I'm not nearly where I dreamed of being initially where these guys are getting thousands and tens of thousands of downloads I thought that's fine I'm gonna put my dulcet tones out there they're gonna lap it up and the crowd went home so it has taken some work and it will take some work and this is where you need I think something like a society 11 where you can you can just talk to other people that have been through this or who are going through it because trust me there's a lot of hype out there do you agree yes absolutely loads of light out there if really that people get sucked into this whole thing you see it on platforms like warrior plus and JV zoo which are marketplaces in the kind of I am game and really it's just lots of people selling how to make money secrets to other people that are desperate to make money and and then it just sort of keeps going on but there aren't really any secrets to this this is a thing yes there are techniques yes there are things that you can know but there's nothing you don't need a push button there's no such push there's no push button system there's no by this typing your name press a button you're suddenly gonna make money yeah it takes work and so coming in but if you come in from a place where you're not in desperation and you start building something you can build a sustainable business in a relatively short space of time and I've seen I mean and a couple of the guys on and that's the good part about the society 11 group is that there's a lot of very experienced marketers there but in the time that I've been lurking around there I've seen people build up you know from from exactly where Lager mentioned earlier on to say you know don't know what to do to oh I've made my first sale oh I've made 27 us to making a couple a hundred us a month and then finally getting to the stage where people can almost retire and do what you do and a lot of the other guys do that's make money online full-time and yes it's not something to do if you're looking for you know this the old four-hour work week it's not gonna be there initially I mean at least for me maybe it's because it takes me longer to understand things but it's not there I mean I'm working hard at the moment but this is the thing people say you know is that four-hour work week achievable I think it is eventually but you've got to put in the grind and the work and the effort to get to a point where you can do that I'm not at four hours yeah I still work more than that but then I love what I do but I am getting closer and closer to like a lot of parts of my business almost run themselves now because I've got those things in place but that's taken me the last 18 19 years to build up to and hopefully by the time I sort of reach what would be retirement the business will just keep going and keep paying and whatever anyway and I can be as very hands-off yeah which is I think that's the reason a lot of people would like to in particularly here in South Africa like to get into this online thing so that we can supplement our incomes and show that when you get to that retirement age because we figuring out in this country that that retirement age is more a myth than anything else at the moment and you've got to do things to supplement your income this is a great way of doing it so we can do that Andy before I say goodbye tonight if they are there any bits or essential bits of software you would recommend people have a look at so somebody's listening tonight because I just got in one here from Craig who goes okay so but but are there any tools that one would need that Andy would consider essential and in fact there's a couple that says what are they because I know in my journey there's a couple of things I found I needed okay so very quickly then you've got you need a hub site ideally so WordPress is free get up for that but there are some plugins that will make WordPress secure and there are some plugins that will make that will get WordPress looking how you want and themes and things that so you might want to consider a commercial theme or something like that depends how what sort of look and what are we going for beyond that you need a way of creating what we would call lead pages or landing pages for me I use a tool called convertory and convertory also host those pages for me but I can link them into my WordPress if I want to so you need a page builder and what we would call a lead page or a sales page builder yeah okay you need auto responder you need a way of getting people to say here's my email address so that you can send me news updates whatever it is so that you've got a way of reaching them they're like the absolute critical things and then ideally if you're going to be selling your own product and things like that you want a shopping cart system yes preferably in a membership membership system for me I use Thrivecart and I use something called product dyno to secure my products okay so those are all things but again if we just typed in that into our Google search we would find things like that because you would within reason I understand that people are gonna know there's always this thing you know which is the right one for me there isn't really you know you just find one that you can learn and get on with they're all gonna have a learning curve most people that don't get anywhere we find they own six page builders but have never built a page what's the point yeah you know by one page builder and build six pages there's a far better word in it and and learn to do it now Andy in terms of we've spoken a lot about society 11 and I am a raging fan people that are under no false impression there is there a way that we can you know join society 11 maybe just on Facebook and not actually join you know what I'm saying can we just join the group without joining the society because I think yeah carry on we have set up a small group called Society 11 moneymakers group which is the free to join group now you don't get the best stuff in there but you get to you get to talk to the members of society there and some questions we do broadcast some of our live feeds and things into there but obviously not all of it because that's what the premium members are paying for so but you can certainly use it as a taster and if you just go on Facebook and search for society 11 orders one word then do a hyphen and type money makers group and you should see that group and you can request to join it and I would definitely number one first prize which for me is is what I would heartily recommend is join the actual group the premium group there's so much of value in there if you can't there and you want to get your toes wet just go in and join that society 11 because then you can ask because Andy's now mentioned stuff which I've now become familiar with but in the beginning it sounded like these people were talking in code to me you know convert tree thrive caught this thrive themes optimized this down and I just I had no idea so I didn't get six page builders I got seven and I've now managed to whittle them down to two that I actually use and the two I use I use something called oxygen and I use something called optimized press so that's what I'm currently using and focusing on and trust me there's no way as you can do six or seven page builders because there is a learning curve in anything even in just setting up a simple WordPress site there is a learning curve if you've never done it but but chatting to people and getting their advice from people who've been there and done that it just makes life so much easier I've bought software that was going to do everything it was all in one that was going to do this that and the next thing and I got it and it was so complicated I had no idea what I was doing so join the group if you want to join the main group as you are busy there and you're about to check out it says their coupon code into your coupon code d what's put that all in in capitals and Andy and Kurt will gladly then pay that initial entrance fee which I think is very very you're saving $70 by using that because it's it's $27 11 cents a month but there's like a $70 premium when you first join with that coupon code that is wave so they're effectively giving us $70 the last time I looked the ran was going at about 14 ran 60 to the dollar so well well with it any brockless thank you so much from a society 11 man just ask one more question if somebody wants to get hold of you yourself they can go to Andy brocklehurst.com your products are all available on the website that you sell because there's one I'd like to personally recommend if you're getting into this and this is where my journey really began you've got a little publication called the truth spelt in the Brit way T R E W T H the truth yes yes felt the old English way ye olde English so and he's written that and it is brilliant if you're starting out and you want to clear away the clutter and the confusion the truth is the thing to get so on that note Andy brocklehurst thank you so much for joining us tonight we thank you look forward to chatting you again chatting with you again in the next month or so look forward to it there we go Andy brocklehurst so check it out Andy brocklehurst.com otherwise society 11 you can check that out on Facebook if you'd like to ask me any questions about that I'm by no means an expert but I am part of this online thing this online world and I'm learning as much as I can you can drop me an email it's David at what's involved dot co dot zay that's W A T T S I N V O L V E D so there we go Andy brocklehurst be back with us in a month or so