Terry Angelos — Fine Artist, Wife Mother, Author White Trash

And yet again, it is what's involved. It's so good to have you along with us. Now, traditionally on what's involved, I like chatting to people and we do a lot of business-focused stuff. And every now and again, I just sort of go off the path because, you know, why not? And I just talk to people that I find fascinating. I talk to people that have got stories, that have got great stories. And now is one such occasion because who am I talking to right now? I am talking to Terri Angelos. She is the author of a book called "White Trash," "My Year as a High Class Called Call Girl." And I've got to tell you, first and foremost, let me say welcome, Terri. It's nice to have you along with us. - Good morning, David. Thank you so much for having me. - An absolute pleasure. Now listen, to write a book like this, first and foremost, hats off to you. - Thanks. - And I got to tell you, when the book came across my desk, I first looked at it and then I thought, "Oh, do I want to start? Okay, maybe I want to read it. Maybe there's some really juicy bits in there." You know? And I picked the book up and I found that I got sucked into this book from the very, very beginning. And I thought, this is such a great story.

And it's a typical hero's journey in the sense that, you know, you started out, you made decisions, you ended up at rock bottom, and then what happened afterwards. It's absolutely fascinating. So good to have you with us, Terri. Let's start off as I normally do. I want to find out a little bit about who Terri Angelos is. So, and this is part of what you're going to be talking about now, is in the book. And you write so, so well. Your writing is so emotive. You took me back to the smell of the first rain and a thunderstorm in your days. It was called in those days when I was there, it was just changed. It was called initially, "Redeja," then Zimbabwe. So tell me about Terri.

- David, Terri is currently a 52-year-old woman with, like you say, a lot of life and stories behind her. And this particular book focuses on one year and the build up to that and the resolution of it. And as you describe it, it is the story of a heroine, not a heroine addict, but a heroine. And I'm an artist, I'm a visual artist, and I am a mother, I have a family, but I'm always driven by curiosity. I think that's kind of always been a keystone in my life. And so when approaching writing this book, yes, the hook is my year as a high-class poor girl and that I think creates the intrigue, but the journey is so much more than that. And like you say, it takes you into places and takes you just along this incredible journey from my childhood all the way through to kind of a year where things fell apart in London. And I think being an artist, I've approached the book very much with an artist's eye. So wanting to make the story as visually and emotionally and appealing as possible so that you are really pulled into that world.

- Okay, but in the book, and you talk about this, 'cause I wanna talk a little bit about that, about your childhood and a little bit about how you grew up. Share that with me.

- David, I always thought, like I suppose many of us do, that we had a normal childhood because we don't have anything to compare it to. And so my childhood had this kind of strange paradox of being raised in a bubble of safety that was actually quite idyllic in a lot of ways and yet with the backdrop of war. And so I think our parents and the families around us were trying their best to create some kind of normalcy for childhood. But in actual fact, there was a lot of things that were very abnormal. And I think being in a kind of a war scenario creates, I think, a lot of hypervigilance. And so I think that's why some of my memories are so vivid because we lived with this kind of hypervigilance all the time. And I think it's something that many South Africans can relate to as well, living with hypervigilance. - Mm, absolutely. I mean, I'm guilty of that. I have been guilty of that myself. You know, and I also ended up in the military. One of the things though, in the beginning of the book, Terry, that really, it just sort of just really caught me is the story of you going out to the lady's house just behind you and eating sada.

Now, unless you know, and unless you are a Rhodesian or a Zimbabwean and you've been there, you have no idea what sada is. Because let me tell you, I love pop and gravy. Love it, love it, love it, love it. But there's something different about it in Zimbabwe. It's just, it's wonderful. Now, just that tiny little bit of the story, that really tugged at my heartstrings because you were there and there was some specific words that you used about the sada eating experience. And, you know, what should have been so natural and so normal was actually almost shameful.

- Yeah, I actually start out the book saying that my first memory was a secret sneaking off to Maggie's room at the bottom of the garden. And so the story actually uncovers a lot about racism and kind of social things that we were normalized for us socially. And so you get those contrasts between sort of sitting, you know, sitting in the cement room and all the smells, tastes, feels experienced through a child's eye who doesn't actually understand the social construct. Just, there's just some sense in her that she shouldn't be telling anybody about this, that it needs to be a secret. And I think the experience of eating sada in the circumstance where it's cooked on the paraffin stove in, you know, it's different. It's a different, you know, you have the taste of the smoke coming through the sada. And yeah, so I understood this deep connection with a woman who was so attentive to me. And so motherly, while my own mother was distracted with, you know, my newly born baby. And so, and just processing that as a child and understanding like I said, the social construct

of the situation. - Yeah, one of the things that I have to say this in compliment one, you know, when you say that you're currently a visual artist, but you literally paint pictures with your words in this book. And it's very, it does, it transports you there. I mean, when we're going to get to London in just a little while, then the sort of harsh gritty side of it, you paint those pictures. I mean, at one stage, oh, I'm not going to get too much into it. Let's do this. Let's do this.

My special guest is Terry Angeles, author and her memoir. It's called "White Trash" by year as a high-class call girl. When we get back, we will discuss a little bit more on what led to going to London. This is what's involved back in a bit. And we're back with my special guest, Terry Angeles. So, Terry, like you said earlier, and I think most of us do experience this, you know, we think that the life we live, particularly as kids, is, that's normal. That's what everybody does. I mean, you know, I grew up with an alcoholic father and he used to, when he sort of drank too much, got quite violent and aggressive. And yet my best friend, the same one I was telling you about who had the farm in Mataki, he had exactly the same situation. A very violent, abusive father drank a lot. Him and I didn't know there was any difference. When we hung out together, you know, so, well, dad's getting trashed again, you know, it was normal. Nobody told us it was abnormal. So now, how did you go through, and tell me a little bit about your school career and those sort of formative years. What happened there? - David, you know, the book is actually almost like

investigating a cold case because I didn't, I came from what I presumed was a normal family, but with a backdrop of war. So what I did was I looked for places where I, this is, if you ask yourself this question, you'll know something will come to mind. But if you ask yourself, where did everything shift? Where was there a profound change, something that just changed my worldview? And I actually traced that back to the time of independence and where we decided to immigrate to South Africa. And my parents were both educators. So, you know, in their fear of post independence and robbery was that, you know, like so many white people thought, you know, it's all just gonna go downhill from here. Let's go to South Africa. And I think that's where I find myself just feeling like I wasn't coping. I wasn't keeping, I wasn't keeping, I wasn't keeping up. And I had come from a small town where I was kind of the superstar, where I was, you know, I described it as being the queen of the antique. And here I was just in this huge, much more kind of modern in a lot of ways, society, the girls just seem more advanced than me. And all my efforts to kind of build my identity around achievement were starting to crumble.

And I think being 11, turning 12, that was a vulnerable age for me. And I think, you know, I kind of pinpoint that as one of the moments of unraveling. - Now, let's talk a little bit about, you know, now you've kind of gotten to the stage where you're older

because it strikes me, and I think you mentioned as well, you were a bit of a rebel, you were, you weren't the most shy person in the room, were you? - No, not at all. But I think what happened was I started to build my identity around getting attention. And I think that's often what happens in, you know, the typical rebellious teenager is, you know, when being good and being, you know, top of the class is no longer working, I reached out for the next kind of thing that I thought, you know, I could kind of pin my identity on, and that was definitely being a rebel and getting attention in that way. And it just kind of snowballed from there. - Now, what led to the decision to go overseas? - You know, I was in my second year of, I've done a year of fine art and a year of drama and was still conflicted about what I really wanted to do. And I had a little summer fling with a young man and actually, while my boyfriend was on a fishing trip with my father, and he was going to London and he just said, "Why don't you come?" And I just thought, "Why not?" I actually don't know what I'm doing. I've got this yo-yo boyfriend. Merrittsburg is just too small for me. I need the big, wide world. So it was kind of this whim.

And I didn't know, I had this strange sense of destiny about it, funny enough, that I was being pulled to something that I would find something big in London. So I kind of went with this sense of ambition, the sense of destiny at all of 19 years old. - Yeah, bright eyed, starry eyed. Then you end up in London, because let's be very clear here. You didn't start out on this journey and go, "I think I'm going to go to London. "I'm gonna end up in this sort of sex industry. "And I'm gonna, like, my life is just about gonna kill me." You didn't start off like that. Nobody starts off like that, I don't believe. So you arrive in London and what happens then? - I arrived in London with literally 80 pounds to my name and two days to find a job and a phone number. I must remember these are not the days of cell phones. The phone number of a possible digs to crash at. And I called that number from a London call box at Victoria Station. So I was under pressure and I thought the best job would be au pairing, 'cause that's food and accommodation. And I did it and being a very entitled privileged white South African young lady, soon found myself being viewed as the help and I just didn't go down too well with me.

And I thought the children were absolute brats. And within two weeks, I was dismissed from my job and find myself in London. And I'd heard a story from a friend of my mother about her testing in London. And she painted it as this picture of the ultimate glamour job in the '60s serving cocktails to wealthy businessmen.

And I thought, yeah, I can do that. I can do that with no trouble at all. And so when an advert for an hostess popped up, I was like, ah, this is it, let me go. And so that's kind of how I started it. I started it and I equated to the boiling frog syndrome, a combination of curiosity and already being quite a hedonistic kind of daring girl.

And once I put my foot across that doorway and step down into that world, I was very soon pulled into it. - This is amazing. And I mean, you write so honestly in the book about how this all progresses. And I don't wanna give too much away because it's a fantastic book and you've got to read it. But it is, it's amazing. And the boiling frog analogy is absolutely right. If you don't know what we're talking about, it's equated to if you sort of try and put a frog into a pot of boiling water, it's not gonna like it's gonna wanna get out. But if you put it into cold water and slowly raise the temperature, it won't know then till it's boiling. So that's essentially it. But it is, and you know what? I've had some experience in that industry. I was spent some time helping somebody out from a sort of, I guess, a consultancy management position 'cause they had many businesses, but a couple of them were these gentlemen's clubs. And I've just seen so much that can happen. And I've seen how these young girls get lured into it and how before they know it, they're in boots and all. And there's just no getting out because there's so much stuff that happens. - But now, you didn't stay working at that club for very long, did you?

- No, in the book I referred to it as grade one for hookers because it was very, in a lot of ways, very tame. And I think, you know, I always thought I went in with my wits about me, you know, fully understanding what I was doing. But looking back, there was definitely an element of grooming and kind of, you know, the beginning of being pulled into a world that you can get really, really, very quickly sucked into. So, yeah, that didn't last long because by that point, I then met a girl and, you know, we became quite a dynamic couple together and we're very ambitious and, you know, sort of once we were in that world, you know, I think I definitely saw myself as being the one that was the exploiter, not the exploited. And that comes from quite a different angle when you feel like you have the power, you're the one in control, you deciding how far and what you'll do.

And so that was the start of that and kind of making choices based on having that ambition to exploit men and what are viewed as their weakness. - And you know what, and talking to you now, I mean, I've chatted to some people as well in the past and that is exactly what it is and it's such a weird contradiction because the men who go to these kinds of places, you know, they're going there and they're going, well, I'm going to get X, Y and Z and I've got the money, I've got the power, I've got the control and I sit there and laugh because they don't. I mean, if a lot of these men knew what the ladies were thinking, they would not want to go there, I promise you. I don't know from your perspective, but it becomes this thing I think, and you can correct me 'cause you've been there where it is, it's slowly, slowly, slowly and more and more things become normalized, but also there's money. And it's not money that you have to be a rocket scientist to earn. And if you've got a personality, if you're attractive, and if you've got an IQ slightly above that of plant life, you can really do well for yourself. - You can and I think, you know, when I looked around, I didn't see a lot of girls like myself.

And it's funny, you know, the comment that I would get is, people would find it surprising to meet me there because I was educated. I wasn't what they would have perceived as low class.

I could hold a good conversation, you know, and actually people might be surprised to hear that it's actually not all about sex. A lot of it is just about really there being to stroke a man's ego more than anything else. And, you know, I understood the economy of that side of business. I understood that, you know, a businessman coming into London for two days, you know, wanting to let off some steam, wanting to have a good time, doesn't he doesn't have the time to find a date and meet a woman and then worry if she's gonna think, is he gonna call her again? And he isn't gonna call again. And next time he visits, will he look up in the phone book? You know, I actually just understood the business side of it. I just understood how this all worked. It made sense to me. And so I think from that point of view, you know, I also found myself kind of also with an ambition about, I'm gonna make this work for me. - Absolutely, and to the degree you did for a while, but we'll get into that - For a while. - We'll get into that in just a little bit. My special guest, I'm chatting to Terry Angeles, author of "White Trash," my year as a high class call girl. This is what's involved, we'll be back in just a bit.

And we're back, what's involved it is. So good to have you with us. My special guest is Terry Angeles. So Terry, you went through to the one place and then you moved on, but talk to me about meeting this mysterious gecko person.

- Yeah, he was one of those, I kind of referred to him as a rescuer. He was quite an interesting character. He was so slick and smooth. He was from Texas. He was an art dealer, extremely wealthy, only ever wore Versace and all the top designers. And he just took a liking to Sandy and I. And he kind of took us under his wing,

but at the same time was very much a client. Was also a very strange kind of relationship in that he was simultaneously trying to pull us out of this world and warning us about what lay ahead. And we were just young and thinking, no harm can come to us as you do when you're 20. And while at the same time, actually making full use of our call girl services. So he was a very interesting character. And we had a kind of sugar daddy type relationship with him. - Oh, 'cause I think there's one part, if I recall correctly, one part where you guys wanted to go away somewhere, but without him. - Yes. You know, one of the things that happens in that world is you learn to become a master manipulator. And that's certainly what happened to me. And you know, you're in this to make money and get what you can out of it, you know. And in talking honestly about it, that's one of the things I had to face about myself is just how greedy and exploitive and manipulative I became in that world. And all the time thinking, I have the power, I have the control, you know, I've got this, I've got this all under control. I know what I'm doing. Meanwhile, swimming in very dangerous waters, you know, being oblivious to the actual dangers that were possible doing what I was doing.

- And there are certainly a lot of those. But now, at this time, Ted, was there any sort of plan and were you thinking, sheesh, I need an exit strategy 'cause I cannot do this forever.

- Yes, David, I think, you know, my whole mindset going in there was, you know, I'm on a gap year, I've come here to, you know, make my way in life and have adventures and, you know, being like I said, curious and daring. You know, I just kind of saw it as almost, almost like I was not like a journalist or a voyeur, but someone kind of going into a world, like dipping into it, and I could just go out whenever I wanted. And that's how I viewed it for a long time, that this is not actually me. And because there's so much role pay and changing of personas, and I describe it as shape-shifting, you do start to actually separate your kind of, your soul, your inner part of your being from this persona. And I think that's how you actually end up kind of going deeper because you numb out, you dissociate, you take on a persona, you act a role and you kind of bury your own self. So I just saw it as something that I would do for a while, have a great adventure, pack up my suitcase, put it all in a box and go home as if nothing had happened. But obviously that's not how things work. - Talk to me about that part of the theory. I mean, the sort of slide and the hitting the rock bottom, where in that year did you kind of go, uh-oh, hang on, things are not all sunshine and roses right now?

- Well, not to give away too much from the book itself, there definitely was a point where I think I could no longer separate. Where I just, I couldn't say anymore, this is just a fun adventure and I can go home. The realization that this was me doing these things and me in this world, that this is what I had become, was, you know, it was a kind of more than a wake up call, it was devastating to actually kind of face that reality. And then to look forward and think, where will I be? How is this gonna impact my life, my future? You know, what if, what when I want to get married, who's gonna want to marry me? What about a family? So looking, projecting where I was now onto my future, and that was very, that was really part of the rock bottom. And then obviously getting involved in more and more dangerous situations that, you know, there's one particular incident I write about that was very, very, I mean, I nearly lost my life. And it was, I think that's really where it hit me the most. And I just couldn't, I lost the get up and go, I lost the will to live really, 'cause it just all came crashing down around me. Emotionally, psychologically, physically,

you know, I just really hit a very dark place where I couldn't see anywhere else.

- Yeah, and I'm gonna say again, you know, whilst reading the book, you know, I kept finding myself going, all of this happened in a year?

I was like, holy guacamole, that's a lot. But now surely at that time as well, now you're thinking, you know, that you need to get out, you need to come back to South Africa. Going through your mind must have been, well, how am I gonna, 'cause you said you were worried about if you wanted to get, you know, get married, have children. So you must have been thinking about the consequences now of arriving back in South Africa. What were you gonna do? - Well, fortunately, I actually, even before, I think, you know, my path to redemption started in London, and actually finding faith. And I, you know, I write about my relationship with God and the role that that had in my healing. And I think there's so much religious cliche out there that that alone was a difficult subject because I wanted to write about just starting over and just rebuilding my self-esteem, looking at myself in a different way,

kind of facing those really ugly parts of me and just kind of putting myself back together. That started to happen before I got home. And I think the process was one of hitting rock bottom.

This is the worst part of me. This is, you know, what I've done is diabolical. It's now a part of me. I can't exclude that from my persona. To then build, the building back up again is then also the reverse of that. So yes, I've done terrible things and I've made bad choices and I've messed up, but that's not all of me. So rediscovering the good and reorientating myself. So it's kind of a paradox in a way because you have to go through the one to get to the other. - Yeah, there's that old saying, if you're going through hell, keep going.

Later, you're gonna get to the end of it. Now, just before we go to a break, I just wanna say that, so you got back to South Africa. One of the things though that you did is you started this little house that you guys were in and it was all young ladies of faith. - Yes. - And the question and just the way, even that you that you wrote the accent there, the question that you got asked I think was incredibly ironic. Talk to me just about that little bit. - Yeah, it's funny how, you know, so now I was trying to do, literally trying to do the opposite of what I was doing before. And I mean, even the day I decided to go to church, opening up my call girl wardrobe and trying to find something to wear to church. I mean, you know, I literally had to try and re, kind of recalibrate my whole being and living. So I ended up in Rocky Street back in the day. So if you want to reminisce about Hillbrow and Yobel and all of those cases in Joburg, you'll enjoy those chapters immensely. - Oh, I do. - You know, I'm living with girls who are all in the full-time ministry in some way, shape or form and, you know, people coming and going and then, you know, our neighbors across the road came to the conclusion that this must be a brothel.

So, you know, no matter how much you try to live a good life, you have no control over how people actually view you. So, yeah, it was hugely ironic and it's always amused me to this day. - Leona, I found that bit in the way you wrote it very, very amusing and sad, let's be honest. This is what's involved. My special guest is Terri Angelos. She is the author of "White Trash." My year as a high-class call girl. We'll be back in just a bit, wrapping it up with Terri. And we're back with my special guest, Terri Angelos. So, Terri, you know, the book does continue a bit, but what I wanted to talk about is, you know, in the beginning you said that you're now, you know, you're a fine artist and obviously a very good author, married family, all of that, how long did it take you to decide, okay, I need to share my story. My story needs to be told. And were you at all worried about the kind of reception that you were going to get writing a story like this?

- Definitely. You know, I always knew I would write a book or tell my story in some shape or form. And I have told my story over the years. You know, I've never kept it too deeply hidden and certainly with people that I trust or people that I think it would help if they knew, you know, no matter how much you mess up, you can turn your life around kind of thing. But I wasted till my children were finished at school and were young adults. And me, my husband and my children were the deciding factor as to whether to go ahead or not. And they were all on board and hugely supportive. And I knew I had a good story to tell. And I also knew that no one's really written a memoir like this that is such an intersection of honesty about race, about social trauma, about that underworld.

And yeah, I just, I don't know, it's hard to explain. It's like, when you've got something inside of you that you know you need to get out. That's just how I felt about the book,

that I knew I could tell a really unique and compelling story. - Which you did, but now going through the process of writing this book, was it cathartic in a sense or was it sort of traumatic? I mean, this is almost like, I don't know, I would guess this is a part of you. It's like birthing a part of you. So it wasn't that you sat down and went, okay, sunshine and roses, let's go. Talk to me about the process there.

- Yeah, I'd worked on the book over a pair of about three years in kind of little scenario writing scenes, I suppose as you would call it, and trying to figure out the structure. And you'd be surprised to know that actually writing about racism was very difficult because I didn't know how I wanted to be, I didn't want to sanitize it. I wanted it to be raw and real and paint the picture exactly as it was. And one of the themes you'll pick up in the book is that, you know, is an uncovering of a racist viewpoint through this cosmopolitan city of London. So that was very difficult because, you know, it's such an explosive topic. So I had more concern about that, you know, this is 32 years ago. Absolutely, if I wasn't in a place of peace and acceptance about myself and healing, I wouldn't have been able to tackle those subjects. They would have been too traumatic. But yeah, it was difficult. I think it uncovered a lot of shame, you know, and that shame kind of comes in cycles and waves, and there were definitely waves of feelings of shame, at times feeling very insecure in my relationship with my husband needing a lot of validation from him that I was still loved and lovable.

But I found it surprisingly liberating, you know, that this all exists now outside of myself. And it's out there, it's almost a sense of freedom really, which was unexpected in the process. - Yeah, now it's a really nice kind of, you know, analogy and that sense of freedom was like, okay, it's done. But also behind this entire book that you've written, there's this sense of purpose, a sense of destiny, a sense of this is a journey, and you had to go on this journey in order to become the person that Terry is today.

- Absolutely. You know, I think when you're curious and daring and arrogant and greedy and all of those things, those things in your personality, if you allow them full reign, can take you down a very dark path. And that's what happened to me. And so I think it's also acknowledging that if we don't face some of the dark parts of our personality or we allow them free reign, you know, we can end up doing some really diabolical things. And, you know, we sit in a country surrounded by stories of corruption and just understanding that, you know, those things happen compromise, after compromise, after compromise and allowing, you know, whether it's your sense of greed or power to be what's in control, to not actually face those things about yourself and face the darkest parts. They can come to the fore and take you down a bad road. - Oh, and listen, just the fact that you sat down and that you wrote this book, which is, to me, it's, there's some amusing parts, there's some scary parts, there's some really heart-rending parts, but it is the journey and it's the journey of you. And you've shared that and this journey that you've shared can maybe be a roadmap for other people. You know, that's the part of it that I took from this book, you know, it's going, it's a book that says, look, no matter how bad it is, there is always hope.

- Yes, definitely. And look, you know, there's some, there's certainly many women who find themselves in circumstances where they are trading in some shape or form their sexuality for some kind of security, some kind of, you know, there's an economical trade that happens across all spheres of life and mine was just an extreme overt version of that. And yeah, just hoping that women will see that you can be brave and you can, you know, you can walk away, you can, you can mess up and make poor choices and do stupid things, but those things don't have to define who you are, they don't have to define your future. You know, so I hope people, you know, see a story at the end of enormous redemption and hope and courage and, you know, just the ability to reshape your life. - Well, I've got to say, I mean, I take my hat off to you because I know it took tremendous courage to write this book and to say, okay, well, now it's out there. You know, I might not have kept it a secret secret, but it's now really out there. - It is really, really out there. - But I think it's brilliant and thank you. Terry, before I let you go, after a book like this, what are you busy with now? What's next for Terry Angelos?

- Well, everyone is demanding another book. So everyone that's read it, I've had incredible feedback. It's doing really, really well. It's really surprised everyone. My publisher calls it a little dark horse. And so I would, I've just become obsessed with writing. I love it. I would like to write more. I've got some ideas rolling around in my head. But at the moment, I'm just really enjoying being able to share my story and have conversations like this. I'd hoped it would be a conversation starter. And so I'm enjoying this part of the journey as well. - Wonderful stuff. Well, I'm putting my name down first on the list there when the new book comes out, okay? - Thank you so much, David. - There we go. It wraps it up. Terry, thank you so much for taking the time out and having a chat to us. We really do appreciate it. And I wish you all the best going forward. - Excellent. Thank you, David. I've really enjoyed our discussion. - There we go. That's Terry Angelos, author of "White Trash, My Year as a High Class Call Girl", available in all good bookstores and online as well, I'm sure. Go out and get it. It is well worth the read. It's, you know, when you see the title, you go, okay, yeah, this is gonna be one of those.

It's not, okay? It's not. So just go out, get the book. It's gonna be one of the better reads that you've had. - And a great story there as well. As I said, it wraps it up for this edition of "What's Involved". To each and every one of you, look after yourselves, take care, and thank you for listening.