Rico — Drawing a Nation’s Psyche: Madam and Eve Cartoon Books as a Country’s Diary

what's your dream what's your goal what's your motivation what's important to you what's your passion what can you do to change the world this is what's involved conversations with thought leaders and change makers from around the world hear stories of hope and inspiration to help motivate people like you to live your life find your passion passion and live your dream together we could all bring positive change to our world now here's your host David Watts once again it is what's involved in this time I thought we'd have something a little more light-hearted although it does talk to some of the more darker irritating subjects in life what am I talking about well I am talking about Madame Aeneb 2022 annual and it's unmasked and I'm joined now by one half of the dynamic duo responsible for Madame Aeneb and that's Rico how you doing Rico and well thank you well it's great to be on the show with us and thank you for taking the time out and sharing some of this info with us I like to start off right at the very beginning though so tell me a little bit about Rico where were you where were you born and bred and then grew up and and when did you decide that art cartooning illustrating was something for you well I was actually born in Austria and came in South Africa when I was like two years old so basically grew up here grew up first in Durban and most of my life in Joburg and I was drawing and doodling cartoons and comics all over school desks and school books and things basically you know as soon as I can hold a pencil and I always wanted to do this kind of thing there weren't many options so you went through the phase of studying for you know the the real job I studied a very graphic design which I was good at everything except graphic design itself and you know just a bit of architecture as well and then eventually as somebody of my generation that the whole army thing in their conscription and after that now I came out and and then I saw there was a magazine start called laughing stock so this was in 89 basically like a punch magazine for South Africa and I thought oh this is great so I went up there to show my portfolio and stuff and the editor was ill and the guy the guy I met was actually sort of the stand-in for to do the interview with Stephen Francis who funny enough had just come back from the dentist so he was a slightly in pain and off defects of no very very strange interview really like my work and I joined the staff they're drawing cartoons and things for a while while the magazine lasted and that's where we met and then many years later we joined up with a third partner Harry Dunmore with sort of freelance and we do various things but one of the things that then weekly mail was looking for a comic sort of satirical cartoon strip and we had Stephen came up from his when he first came to South Africa and he married a South African and we went to stay with his mother-in-law and that's we kind of encountered the whole living domestic workers various African set up we thought that's that's very strange and sort of you know that kind of material for for satire that was the setting for the comic strip and yes and all my cartooning and stuff was all self-taught all the drawing and art basically looking at all the things that I really enjoyed in the cartoons and just trying to find my way and teaching myself how to draw cartoons. Wow now when you guys first put your heads together and came up with this concept and you're gonna call it madam and Eve did you have any sort of idea of where it was going to go to and none at all I mean the title sort of came first in the setting and we did some sort of sample drawings and took it to the weekly mail and they loved it and I thought it was just you know it will run for a little bit and it actually really found a niche and a resonance with the audience I mean so much so that they started using those original sample cartoons from the word go so that the early characters look a lot different from the current version and then we kind of expanded into well it's going to do it weekly so we can expand into the daily papers and the idea inspiration essentially was the American political comic strip Dunesbury that was sort of you know the way it approaches things that was a sort of inspiration and then the other cartoons we liked was Kelvin Hobbes and the Farsights all those had an influence on sort of the mix of the political satire and sometimes really wacky. Well this was sort of Farsight style.

The amazing thing and I said it just before we got into this industry I said to you it kind of feels like you guys have been around my whole life and then I went on to say when did you start this 1992 did you started and to me 1992 seems like just yesterday but that's 30 years on. I know it's actually scary to think about. I've been drawing this book not necessarily every day but basically nonstop for 30 years yes and it's quite a considering I mean some cartoons just have been around longer for the international ones I mean to our sadness Kelvin Hobbes only lasted was only around for 10 years believe it or not and yeah now we kind of just went along changed with sort of with the times you know and we had we had no idea I mean essentially it was it was as long as the audience resonates with it and the readers love it we'll keep doing it because we enjoy it and a lot of our material is kind of self-generating because it looks at politics and things and that mix of daily lives and covering basically everything so we can have some fun occasionally and then we go into those hardcore satire. Yeah I'm still I'm sitting here I'm gobsmacked anyway listen we're gonna take a break now when we come back we're gonna be chatting and continuing our chat with Rico the autistic side or the cartoon cartoonist got it tried eventually of Madam and Eve we talked about the the latest offering Madam and Eve the 2022 annual it's called unmasked back in just a bit you're listening to what's involved with David Watts have you been to our website check it out www.what'sinvolved.com and while you're there click on the coffee mug icon and buy David a cup of coffee he'll love it. We're back what's involved it is my special guest is Rico of Madam and Eve fame now Rico I can imagine in the beginning you came of the concept you didn't really know you know where it was gonna go whether how much legs it had and it's obviously grown and grown and it's and it's still an absolute favorite now what what comes first in terms of the creative process does Stephen come up with with with with sort of the storyline and then you should have draw according to that how does that work first first thing it comes up is sort of a basic concept of a theme what do you want to deal with you know just if we let on to a you know a new story and what could be the angle it can also be a visual gag sometimes play with visual ideas and then essentially there's a script first Stephen can actually can draw let's say does use thumbnail rough sketches which I then use as a basis you know to basically drop the cartoon strip you know pace it space it needs some editing sometimes you know gets too crowded or especially the larger the weekly ones that I know in the daily marriage basically like a mini story basically telling so that might need quite a lot of visual work so that depends it depends on what it is and but essentially it's it's concept I mean I can come from I mean Stephen spends most of his time in York these days so she stories picks up news and things and then just see what angles what fresh you know what fresh ways to look at it I mean we've had like low cheating for ad nauseam and it looks like it's become so normalized it's not permanent you know and we kind of thinking okay what are there any low cheating jokes left turns out there are but you know it's just a kind of I mean this yes we seem to be in this perpetual cycle of where things just the more they change the more they stay the same you know but essentially that is the process it's great and I I work it up into a cartoon to finish cartoon strip and then send it off to the various we had those newspapers and we also put them on all our social media etc when when you first started out did you did you sort of draw cartoons in the way that I would picture in my head you know you sitting at your you're drawing desk and hand drawing and coloring each and every frame so to speak yeah that's I mean we pre dates Photoshop even pre-date email I mean it was it was done I mean I still draw on paper all the color work this gets you scanned into the computer all the color work final processing that's all done done by you know Photoshop these days but in the when we started out yes it was basically hand drawn I still hand letter as well and it was it was even further to get it to the newspapers you know there was no email anything so we had to literally photocopy these sheets which even though we used to send up a whole week of the let's say the daily cartoons or the one that went into the week email and then we looked like you run to used to dry I used to drive in I think it was it was Wednesday morning into a star and then drop a whole pack of envelopes off every week which went into what they called overnight bags and so these were sent to the internal mail system to all the you know the specs the cap times and their career in all these places that were always sort of in that group and the arrangement of the newspaper groups kind of changed quite a lot you know but it was quite the physical pieces of art and then the way we did the color we know we literally had to send the original was sent in hopefully a few months we get them back so they could scan them and there's big drum scanners that they used to use so when email came along firstly you know they couldn't send a big file so keep it as small as possible you know these attachments would crash you know with old way before then that that old dial-up tone that you used to get and yeah and and so so madam and eve have essentially been through great change in transition in the country and yet they they they still essentially the same because when when we went through the the the 90 94 it was in that we had the elections everything he was was quite quite happy about being liberated and there was a lot of play on those situations but nowadays they seem to have settled into dare we say that the it's like comfortable like a bit like an old slipper if you've been married for 30 years then then this is the way they would carry on where did we did because was mother Anderson in it right from the beginning no she wasn't determine the original sort of setup was you know that that change over the 90 to 94 you know and Eve was sort of teaching and guiding madam into South Africa there's a lot of human then we could use today it's just it's just it was funny then because it was ironic it's no longer funny because it's things still haven't changed to it which is sort of strange and then the kind of relationship is awful but then we brought mother Anderson and originally as we're in Madam's mother from the UK she was sort of this colonial borderline racist and the conflict sort of started between her and Eve and people absolutely love that character and so you know and then then she came back and stayed and actually one of the funny stories is is that one one of the early strips which she had a she had a mother and another twin sister that arrived and we got the the names mixed up and actually sent the wrong mother Anderson back nobody noticed Edith stayed but she was the wrong one and and then eventually we introduced Andy with the little niece of Eve and then we had we added to the whole sort of another generational kind of gap and conflict and I think that's essentially where the human rights is those conflicts and gaps you know as gentle and as loving as they are you know there's that kind of relationship to the point that where mother Anderson and Tanya essentially monopolized a lot of the story of the cartoon strip you know actually rename it but late for that yeah and to me that's also amazing how these characters seem to almost develop a life of their own and develop unique traits and personalities etc etc I just think one of the things I've always found absolutely fascinating is you know these these cartoon strips get published either as you say either weekly or daily in some instances and it's it's a strange type of art because you know within the in the good old days when you read a newspaper you read the newspaper you had a good old chuckle and out went the newspaper and to me annuals and I've still got lying around somewhere in a box I've got some of the Madam and Eve collections going back a couple of years and I just love every now and again discovering it and paging through it because it's like this the satirical look as you say it's sort of the history of our country what do you feel like that I mean do you feel like it's it's it's a it's a very much a sort of trans you know it's it's here today gone tomorrow type of art that you guys put all this blood sweat and tears in or do you think it is something and that's why annuals are popular it's a bit of both I mean it is transitory often you know headlines come and go I mean I look at some of the older sometimes look in the older books and I can't remember what the jokes about if it's like from my 2001 or 2002 I don't know but it's a combination of both because it's sort of a diary every book is essentially a year a compilation of the years cartoons and it's like a diary of what happened what was in the national psyche also what we could make fun of what worked as human and you know what what sort of obsessed at the time I mean I just couldn't believe like at the 2010 World Cup you know how many wozilla jokes we made in the world over and yeah so it's both I mean sometimes it just just comes in and goes and also what's interesting you know when we started you know there was no social media and so your audience feedback would be you know when you when you publish the annuals and you get readers they want the book sign you have a chat with them and they just love it and also it was always gratifying how young so many of our readers continue to be over the years that you have like nine ten-year-olds who just love just love the characters and the cartoon strips which also always guided us in terms of what adult content we could put in you know how risque we could be but but also then you know and the feedback we would get at the time would be the art readers let us you know the outrage was reported you know in the style or the newspaper weekend and then you know I came email and then comes you know we had a website and we would contact you and and then come social media where feedback can be instantaneous and work kind of a new world you know when Facebook and Twitter kind of came about and Instagram and suddenly your engagement with with readers as you know we kind of like you know about 12 hours 24 hours or sometimes you know same level as the printed material you know and then something you get if you offend somebody you hear about it right away yeah and that added sort of it's kind of their perpetuity on somewhere in the web you know on the cloud as they say but it's also a continual you know it's here in our bond tomorrow and and we have no illusions about that I mean the way they create the cartoons it's a very minimalist storytelling so this all we put in is what is necessary to tell the joke and everything else that it's not necessary or getting away or the rhythm it's a trick it's left out now you mentioned earlier on of course in terms of what you can talk about and about the sort of adult type content because you have youngsters reading the comic strip as well what has always appealed to me is that that there's a layers there's layers in there and there's a subtlety in there you know at first look it might just be a funny little thing and the kids would laugh at the expressions on the faces or whatever but then you know you tend to see more and more of where you guys are going and what you are now pointing fingers at have you ever gotten into a lot of trouble for flying a little too close to the political Sun not as such we've had we've always been very conscious about you know what what works in terms of the human in the tone of the cartoon strip there's there's certain things we always consider is it you know in bad taste or disrespectful to let's say victims of violence or HIV wasn't to make human what what can we make work with our characters and our city what can we write about with conviction you know for from experience or what can we make but and we've made a few errors I mean where there's some of them were just timing or we didn't know I mean for instance there's two there's two two times where we kind of like I do you know as I say of all the presses and go back to the drawing board very very quickly is the one where the Huncey Korean thing came out and you know the scandal and and at first nobody thought that was impossible those allegations you know and there were those four phone calls to the the Indian bookies that actually recall broke and we had that strip where he was he was actually ordering Indian takeaway food you know and as we were finishing the cartoon strip literally you know the news broke he confessed you know no you didn't actually think you know the money is the bribes and stuff maybe throw that one out and and there was another case where we had I think there was in the tub in Becky area there was some event where they got some really shoddy contractors to put up a stage was blown over us and wind etc and we had a lot of fun with that and it turns out somebody got a really badly injured actually I think up in a wheelchair we didn't know that at the time so that cartoon was pulled just before publication just respect you know but politically no I mean we kind of we set a toad but I mean there's a sort of a gentle humor to it we try we turn you know there's obviously we stick the knife in but we kind of a rapid in that gentle humor and the silliness yeah that that sort of playful irreverence is is there as well since since it started out how has your your leadership your demographic changed because I know amongst amongst my mates back in the 90s it was it was very much a kind of you guys look a little bit like your lefties and and you know this is this is it's funny but you know let's not get out of hand yeah and you know the concept of black people reading and enjoying it madam and eve we I never saw that happening at that stage how does it look no it's hard to say I mean it depends where where we appear I mean it was it reflects who you know who is the reader of the media so the Daily Maverick with your readership isn't who gets passed on who gets shared around that I think we we we kind of we're at a peak in the late 90s when newspapers were in the late 90s and towards the the World Cup in 2010 I think we're in newspapers and that whole media before you know we're basically at their peak I mean we know circulations of things like the star we're in the million and that kind of thing you know and then with our kind of readership engagement was was the strongest and I think now you know to be honest you know we sort of part of a furniture I mean newspapers have declined and to the sense of it's kind of a strange mix we have some some really young generational fans really you've got you've gotten it on but I don't actually have any sort of hard figures about you know who reads it yeah it would be it would be interesting because I think it's it's South African humor and it does definitely appeal across the board we're gonna take a break when we come back though we're gonna be wrapping it up and then talking just a little bit about the contents of this 2022 annual this is what's involved my special guest is a Rico of Madam and Eve fame we'll be back in just a bit this is what's involved don't forget to subscribe and leave a review more next we're back what's involved my guest is Rico of Madam and Eve fame one of the dynamic duo Rico the the annual it so basically is it is it just a collection of the years comic strips that you've done and your comments that you made and is it sort of a look back or are you very selective in how you put it together it is essentially a collection of the year ending August this year end of August this year from 1st September last 2021 so it's that for the cartoons of that period we leave a few out but essentially it's it's it's basically working the whole year's worth of cartoons we leave a few out that are hard you know that at the time the much you know it might be do a lot of explaining for context or something you know as new stories come and go etc but essentially it's it's a diary of that of that period and I sort of call it the third of the of our Covid trilogy because we had in when in 2020 we had the you know days of our lockdown lives you know in the lockdowns and then we had last year's collection was called you know family meetings and this was sort of intentionally quite a cheerful looking cover and a theme and unmasked you know that kind of relief from the and also when we're compiling this settings things are just generally looking quite gloomy but you know it's hard work coming up with sort of the lighter side of things you know I must say I must say is it's a very bright and happy cover with masks being flung up in the air and the Sun is shining and it's it's great but I mean I just think back to those days you know that mask on mask off mask on mask off and then suddenly it's like the world all went again yeah we've done enough Covid now we're going to stop Covid will no longer exist and suddenly you don't hear anything about it anymore you know we go from from doom and gloom the whole world is locked down to yeah okay now we're done with it now and I keep thinking to myself is you know we were religiously watching the Covid the daily infection rates and everything I can't tell you when last I looked at anything or saw anything come across any my news feeds about Covid I think it is in Africa no I mean I mean it's all there it's sort of becoming gimmick you know it's like bad flu it's I mean obviously getting vaccinated all that is still important I mean this if you follow the news there's still places in the world where it hits big time it's parts of China and places like that you know so so we might get we might get it again who knows you know but it's currently it's kind of it kind of feels like it's wrapped and it's out of the national psyche and it's a relief you know done and dealt with and lived through it I've been struggling over the last two weeks yeah probably about two weeks with what was diagnosed as a viral chest infection and the first thing is when looking at everything like I'm like doctor I don't need to go for a covert test don't worry it's just it's a viral infection there's lots of it going around you're probably not gonna die so you know suck it up princess which is which is pretty much what I've had to do I'm feeling like I've had a small pony sitting on my chest as opposed to the sort of elephant that you hear about in in other covert cases and when I was at the doctor that I was like is this could it be covered you think maybe but you know why bother you've been you've been vaccinated you're not gonna get it as badly as other people so just have a nice day take a rest do whatever so yeah it's very very interesting but we're now before I let you go this this is one of those because normally when I chat to people and authors etc etc about their books I'm like obviously it's available in all good bookstores and online but to me you would never get a Madam and Eve annual online is it available like that or is it just yes it is I mean it's available you know all the other online bookstores you get online you know it's neat we don't know we don't ourselves we don't have online stores it's not you know it's more effective just to to use the the bigger distributors exclusive books and and Louis to Chicana themselves who are co-publisher you know publish the other book you know it's all available online or the good bookstore support the bookstores I mean that's that's that's you know yeah but there's something there's something about about these annuals and and I remember to say for me one of the best things is after the sort of Christmas morning rituals have been done and there was the opening of presents etc etc in that period just before you were expected to sit down to lunch was just sort of lying on the carpet and just paging through and just laughing hysterically and I don't think you're going to get that from a digital version it's just my opinion no I mean the honor digital versions per se I mean you can order the book online that's why yes okay all right but it's not a very visible in okay good good because the the ebooks don't handle the graphics very well yeah so there's still you know the physical book is still the addition and I think they're there yeah I think they're treasured they're collected I mean we have this very strange thing we have noted that you know we've been around so long that I you know you know and then I pop into a second bookstore and I see complete collections that have obviously been somebody's estate or something ended up being sold to a second and books or bookstore so if you keep your eyes are being actually find more like sometimes 20 or 30 of these this is the 30 second annual I was actually gonna ask about that because you know do you do sort of back catalogue back orders because as I'm talking to you and thinking about my collection moldering away in a box in a store in somewhere I'm like hang on a second I'm all fired up now I want to I want to get those things out or get my hands on some new ones and look after them properly this time is there demand for that do you do that no not really I mean it's the numbers are just too small to actually go into reprints I mean there wasn't it was a time when we did but that was like 90s you know when the sales were much sort of high and you know that yeah the sort of South African publishing you know it's very lively because a very crowded and so so there's a lots of titles coming on lots of books being sold and actual you know that the heyday of you know like The Madam Eve selling downtowns and works that that's no longer the case and we still like them and I mean buy them and they make great Christmas gifts you know stocking I was actually gonna say it's just fantastic for this and sure you know so but generally there's a few sort of titles that are still around and available and etc but you know and then second-hand bookstores you know although they don't they don't end up there which is gratifying to us you know they don't end up in second-hand books of often which is always a good sign you know that people keep them and hang on to them and love you know and and pass them on to the kids I mean that's what's one of the such interesting things where we see we'll meet like a nine-year or ten-year-old who's just read all of them since you know the whole since the first Madam and even like 93 the first one came out that has read all of them and laughed and found them funny even though probably not understanding about political references that's great I mean that's and and and for us it's it's essentially as long as we have that audience engagement and resonance with the audience we'll keep we'll keep doing it it's fun wonderful stuff well that wraps it up because thank you so much and thank you as well from the bottom of my heart for Madam and Eve because it's taken me through many a dark time and there's always some light involved and I really really do enjoy it you guys have done amazing work and I do hope that you continue to do so before I let you go though one one question I always like to ask my guests is what's next what's next for Rico have you got something you know you've got some ions in the fire what are you planning not much at the moment I mean it's kind of you know we obviously with man me by cat and I carry on and I mean I do a lot of other work as a freelancer and I do I do editorial cartoons like daily maverick and business day and a lot of educational work but I think I've been I've the one thing I've always wanted to I mean I do like children's illustrations for things like the valley electricity organization things and then there's a couple of children's books that have been brewing just to have some fun with that in brewing and in my mind and my sketchbooks that I think I need to take the time off actually good time to get them done I think that's a fantastic idea awesome well we kind of thank you once again and for all from all the Madam and Eve fans I say thank you I've got a I've got a friend who is in Nalsbreak and she has a gentleman that works for her and he's kind of she's kind of like the jack-of-all-trades and they they pick her like an old married couple and and they nicknames for themselves is Madam and Steve because his name is Steve and then it's it certainly is it's pervasive in our culture so thank you so much thank you there we go wrapping it up for this edition of what's involved go out and get it's a fantastic annual Madam and Eve the 2022 annual it's called unmasked great Christmas gift as well and just get some get some light entertainment over this festive period and as I said coming to an end there to each and every one of you look after yourselves take care and thank you for listening thanks for listening to what's involved we hope this episode inspires you to find your passion and live your dream don't forget to rate review and share the podcast and to see what's happening what's going on and what's coming follow what's involved on Facebook and Twitter and what's involved thanks again for listening