Mills Soko — South Africa and the World

what's your dream what's your goal what's your motivation what's important to you what's your passion what can you do to change the world this is what's involved conversations with thought leaders and change makers from around the world hear stories of hope and inspiration to help motivate people like you to live your life find your passion and live your dream together we can all bring positive change to our world now here's your host David Watts and once again what's involved and I've got a special special guest today but we always we know that I always have special guests who is he though and what are we talking about he is professor Mills Shoko and we're going to be chatting about a book that he recently released called South Africa and the world a political economy journey through time that had me fascinated right at the very beginning hello Mills how are you doing every day I'm good at you thank you for inviting me to have this conversation with you I'm really looking forward to it because you know oftentimes and I've been surprised a couple of times now your your book is one of them that surprised me because normally when I see or hear economics and economies I switch off because then it gets too complicated and I don't understand but not so with this book and I think this is this is a brilliant book and we'll get into why it's a brilliant book during the course of our chat but let's get to know Mills a little better before we dive into the book tell me a little bit about yourself Mills your your background history and how you ended up with a professorship yes I was I was born in in wheatbank in Malafeni I don't know if you know wheatbank well I spent many years living in in Nelsprite so yeah I was born there I grew up there I went to school there and I come from a family of four and I matriculated in 1987 in wheatbank and then I went on to to study at UCT it was a very difficult time at UCT those days at the height of apartheid I became a student activist at UCT and I when I finished my studies I went for a while at UCT under the leadership of Dr. Mampela Rampele she was a deputy vice-chancellor at the University then and I went on to join the the private sector I went for all mutual I had a short stint there but I didn't like the private sector ironically and I decided I was going to work in government and I got a job in Parliament you know in the early 1990s that was 1994 to be precise and during the years of Nelson Mandela in Tabon Bay it was a very exciting time because we're all involved in you know facilitating the transition from apartheid to a democracy and it's a very hopeful time I had a ring-side seat to what was happening and writing speeches preparing policy documents and also helping the leadership to draft a new legislation to replace old apartheid legislation and then I became board subsequently working in government so I decided to continue my studies and starting with the Stellenbosch University I did my MA, International Studies there and then I went on to do another MA and a PhD in the UK at the University of Warwick and when I came back I joined a UCT Graduate School of Business as a senior lecturer and I was there for many years and the last two years as a director of the school and I was 19 I joined Vets Business School as a professor of International Business Strategy so in a nutshell that's my that's my career and personal journey and it has been quite a journey I mean when I when I'm thinking about it when you were saying that you know you were matriculated and went to Varsity in 1987 I mean that was as you say that was in the the really hectic days of apartheid and what was happening and at that time we I don't think anybody from from any political party organization thought there would be a peaceful ending to it and thank goodness it it happened but Mills so it sounds to me like you've always had this this fascination for economy the politics business and how everything works were you always an inquisitive child I was always an inquisitive child David's my parents you know they noticed that long ago and and my dad used to set money aside you know I came from a very poor family but you know he always made their point of setting money aside for me to to buy newspapers on Sunday city press you know Sunday times so I used to read evidently and I also used to write regularly you know to to newspapers like the so attend city press Sunday times during those days you know we you you wrote a you know we didn't have laptops and all that so you so you had to use your pen to write and then go to the post office and post it the letter whatever concern you had and then it got published and I remember the editors of fair of these two newspapers say the so it's an and city press you know Pesica Boza was editor of city press and and the other class deals editor of so it had so they didn't realize this this blog always writes you know he just writes you know he never stops it so they invited me to the offices of them of the of both newspapers to meet me just to see me and and to understand what really made me tick but I've always had this interest and that's why when I worked in government that interest was was there it was increased you know because when I went to the government we dealt with a whole range of issues international trade international law we dealt with a state-to-state relations and and so that really really increased my interest in international affairs and that's why I decided to go to the UK you know to study international political economy to understand how everything be it politics you know law economics and business how those hang together okay but then what led to the book I mean I'm you're a writer let's let's just take that and and I kind of almost got a lump in my throat when you mentioned agriculture that man was an absolute yes legend but now what led to this book South Africa and the world I mean this book came about as a result of a conversation I had with a colleague and friend a professor who is the head of a vet school of governance we were sitting outside there have Starbucks in having coffee in Rosebank and he said to me you know I I think you should write a book and I said why he said no there's so much you have to offer and so Casey I had met him for the first time David when I was doing the first year of my doctoral studies at Warwick University and I'd gone to the Department of Trade in Industry to do research interviews he was a DTI official and you know in the in the department and I had tea with him and so any subsequent you also completed his doctorate at Warwick and he said to me I'll follow your public ratings over the last 20 years and I think you know there's so much you have to offer you need to share your insights with a broader public and that was just a before the outbreak of COVID-19 and and I I listen to him and I thought the idea was a good one and the COVID forced me to implement it and and COVID broke out and I decided I'm gonna write this book so I spend a large part of the COVID that any you know years of of COVID elements of COVID writing this book so it's a it's a book that chronicles my political economy journey and it is a book that straddles various themes consists of eight chapters themes ranging from leadership and governance politics business ethics the South African economy global governance African development South African and international trade and it's a the central message that I seek to convey in the book is that leadership and governance matter be it in the national or international context leadership and governance matter and this is a theme that's a permeates all the chapters hmm okay I tell you what I want I want to get into this a little bit more so what we're gonna do Moses when we come back we'll talk a little bit a bit more about this and have a look at some of the contents of the book this is what's involved my special guest is Mills Soko and we're talking about his fantastic book called South Africa and the World a political economy journey through time we'll be back in just a bit you're listening to what's involved with David Watts have you been to our website check it out www.what'sinvolved.com and while you're there click on the coffee mug icon and buy David a cup of coffee he'll love it we're back what's involved it is my guest is at Milford Soko we're talking about South Africa and the world a political economy journey through time now Mills I'm gonna I'm gonna put a statement to you and we can see if you agree with me or not and and the statement is in a couple of parts so the first part is when you you you hawk back to your time in government in 1994 and that was a great time I was a proud South African at that time and for me it was strange because I grew up in the apartheid era I was I was forced to do military service and spent a lot of my time against my will in in in townships and you know we were all being told it was the end of days that was in the same time that you were there and then we get to 1994 everything happens there's a smooth transition and we're all hopeful it's the rainbow nation we can do anything and yet today here I sit and I feel like that rainbow has gotten tarnished and I feel like we have been failed by our government is that a fair comment it's a very fair comment David we there's a sense of apprehension you know across the country a sense of disappointment and a sense of anger about what has happened and I can remember very well myself working with the what is called a class of 1994 the nursing Mandela's the Becky's the we there was so much hope when I worked in parliament we work very hard we wanted to rebuild this country after decades of apartheid and this is a country with enormous potential but it is a country that has been failed by the leadership and you know at the heart of our country's troubles as I as I argue in the book is is the failure of leadership a catastrophic failure of leadership and so I can understand I can understand why everybody feels so disappointed and angry and apprehensive about about about the future and unless we fix the leadership question in South Africa the future that's not all that well I would agree with you there I mean if I if I look around today you know as we now apparently are entering our fifth wave of covert the people in general the people's lives haven't improved you know and I would think after all of this time something would have happened we started off so well but Mills I don't think and and you talk about this in the book as well I don't think we can blame the state of our country or indeed the state of Africa solely on our leadership because the international guys have got a role to play in this and and you know I've got a feeling and I'm no economist or political person at all but just me looking at what's happened in our history you know the guys that came here and colonized the place said that they weren't all moonlight and roses and fluffy bunnies because you know they our country and indeed Africa has been used as a great resource basket for these first all countries David I understand the you know the role of history colonial history and the and the the legacy you know that it has left but we should not look for excuses a lot of the problems that African countries including South Africa that face today you know they're self induced problems yes there is their own you know for the international community international capital which they continues to have a stranglehold over many countries but I would say a large share of the problems are self-inflicted problems basic things you cannot blame the colonial powers for the failure to fix potholes or the failure to fix your education system you know we are very wealthy country by African standards and we spread as a share of GDP on education a lot of money compared with our peers whether it's Brazil or India but the output is very very disappointing the issues about a storm electricity supply as calm used to be a highly admired company globally and it used to produce electricity not only for South Africa but for other countries on the on the continent you know we had access in electricity supply so when you look at the state of escrow today it's completely completely unacceptable and that has got nothing to do with colonial powers or international communities but to do with leadership with governance when you look at denial let's take another statehood enterprise denial denial used to be a really really admired company which a was which rank amongst the best you know in the defense industry amongst a the best including Israeli companies American companies Turkish companies producing top of the range military hardware you know they're only folk helicopter one of the most innovative products produced it highly admired produced by denial but when you look at the state of denial today it's completely pathetic so what is the problem the problem we know as the Zonda Commission has clearly demonstrated we have had an unacceptable leadership very very poor digital leadership over the the last ten years or so and that's what we're going to face you know we we we cannot blame all these problems on the on outside on the outside world yeah absolutely I'm glad that you said that because you know it you make a valid point and as you were talking I remember a little while ago I saw it was it made front page of it could have been the star or something in the sort of 1970s that Joburg had experienced a 15-minute blackout yes and people were horrified you know because this is just something that's not done now I mean now we're sitting talking I'm talking to you wondering if the power is going to go off because invariably it never goes off when they say it doesn't us we stay in a sort of a more kind of rural part in Pretoria East so you know if the wind blows in the wrong direction we have no power so it's amazing to think that from those days we've gotten to where we are and Denel as well I mean you know as you say the technology was right up there and and what they produced what they manufactured the innovation about the G6 you talk about the the Roy Falk some of the the night vision stuff that they that they produced was being sold around the world and now it's it's a mess so how how did we get to this place Mills because you know we've got you as citizens of this country we've got to take responsibility for some of it ourselves because we let it happen yes two points I want to make David very important question you asking I think first of all we should not fall into the trap of a you know that be failed other African countries because a national decay you know does not happen immediately it takes it evolves as you say you know when those those in the 1970s when there was a black hour 15 minutes everybody was horrified and we were we were horrified when the first experience low shedding in this country but it has become normalized and this is where the danger is you know where when the traffic lies on don't operate it's seen as something that is normal you know and we accept the reality that they'll be slow shaded they shouldn't be low-shaded so we have to make sure that we put pressure on the leadership of this country on the government to fix the problem it should not become normalized this should never become the reality of our lives because if we allow that to happen then we will become like this Zimbabwe's the Guinea missiles the the Nigeria's of this world so we should not allow that the second point we we have it within our power as the electorate to change things and you are correct that we cannot blame all the problems on the leadership of this country we have to take responsibility ourselves because the ANC government has been voted successively overwhelmingly by the majority of this country and I'm glad that some of the kids are beginning to realize that the future of this country does not lie with the ANC the future of this country lies elsewhere and we saw that in the local government elections and where the ANC experience a dramatic decrease in them in the electoral support from some of the kids and I as you know I have a feeling very strong feeling that this is going to be the case again in 2024 and so it should be we should not have allow the ANC to run this country to the ground and and and I I hope that we will ensure that this does not happen in 2024 we've seen enough we've seen enough that shows that as I say in my book the future of this country does not lie with the ANC David this country has many many talented people highly qualified highly capable but those people are not running this country so we need to ensure that we create in future a government that will draw on the best talents of this country you know not on the mediocrity and the failed leadership that we see completely inept completely incompetent and we need to get rid of this government in 2024 and build a new future for our country mm-hmm now you see you mentioned that in a little while ago I think it was Ralph Matera who wrote a book about the ANC's last decade and and you know I said to him and I'll say to you again is that I think generally people will agree the ANC as it stands isn't working yes but the problem that I have is that our options also aren't that great you know so somewhere along the line something has got to happen whereby we get you know it's I'm tired of the same old rhetoric whether you have a political party it is you know we've passed the time and we should still have I think people that have sort of believe in communist ideology and things like that and and you're right South Africa is full of the most amazing people I often get asked you know when I see people leaving the country and they go well you know countries going to dogs and I'm like I'm never gonna leave I love this country and leaving is not the answer you know it's not because then we become part of the problem and then we sit in another country as miserable as can be and we talk about how bad South Africa is and it's it's nonsense because yes it's bad but it's not that bad you know it's it's it's it's it's bad but we still have amazing talent and resources do you foresee those maybe another political party rising to the top or a hybrid you know I mean if the ANC did what they said they were gonna do and cleaned out everything and said right here we go we are being held accountable I would be happy I would be as happy as can be and I would put my cross there once again but they failed us a lot yeah David you made a very important point about how great this country is I I personally like you I will never leave this country because I've been elsewhere in the world and I know what it's like we are today I was in a conversation yesterday with a one of the founders of the Nando's Nando's you know Nando's said and then he mentioned that you know he was calling from the from Washington and and he said you know I love my country I love South Africa I'm in Washington now and I've been talking to the leadership in Washington DC and the problems that the United States has they pay you know that he says the our problems in South Africa they pale into significance when I listen to what is going on in the States and they had been to other countries also where Nando's operates and he said look let us fix South Africa let us fix Johannesburg we can do it we need to take control right business civil society we need to take control we need to work with this government however imperfect it is but we need to drive the change we need to drive and you know you know the the reforms in the country I think that our political landscape has is changing David you know we've seen a proliferation of of political parties you know being there you know parties been brought into existence and we have the Hammond Mashaba you know we have a we have the EFF we have other other political parties you know we have a local government level you know we have ratepayers association now associations have been actively involved in politics so it's very encouraging to see this political landscape becoming diversified and then I I think that we should give a some of these parties a chance you know I you know my job must be given a chance we've given the DA a chance and we've given a the AOC a chance we so we should give my shop in other political parties that will merge that demonstrate that they have the capability you know to to govern and they have the the best interest of this country at heart but I also think that we should not rely on political parties we are very blessed David to have such a powerful non-state sector our business sector is amongst the the best you know in the world you know our companies we have well-class companies when I look at our companies here and I compare them with companies in other countries in a competitor countries like Brazil and India we have well-class companies we have and we need to draw on the and these companies are playing a very important part you know in a in a in helping us you know in this country no through COVID you know through their pay taxes the corporate social investment steals training and also helping the government so we need to and this is what I always say to business leaders you need to take control of your destiny you need to demonstrate leadership you cannot defer to government you know you need to demonstrate leadership because they're what it takes so and the same applies to to NGOs to think tanks and and many other non-state actors so we are very blessed to have such a strong non-state sector in this country and this is what has kept this country going which other countries don't have on the African continent there is in the decline or so dramatic in African countries is because they did not have a strong non-state sector and a very good example of that is what we're seeing a you know in our you know in the north our neighbor Zimbabwe you know I'd like to get into the the business side of things just a little bit as well let's do that when we come back this is what's involved my special guest professor Mill Soko author of South Africa and the world a political economy journey through time back in a bit we'll be right back with more what's involved David would love to hear from you to leave a voice message visit what's involved calm and click drop me a voice note and we're back with Mills Soko my special guest Mills here so one of the things and I've touched on this with a couple of other people that I've spoken to there is we have a fantastic document which yes tells us what South Africa should be and how it should be and that the Freedom Charter the Bill of Rights our Constitution these to me are fantastic documents and once again those ideas those principles seem to have you know been forgotten and dropped by the wayside and when you talk business yeah we've got great businesses here but we seem to have developed this this epitheum I'm right up there okay I'm right up there and I tried to use the small voice I have to to bring these issues to light but you know like you say load shedding I mean we joked about it just now on the way into the office this morning I was I was driving around potholes we make we make jokes that you know that the the the eyes that you see in the road at night or not actually cat's eyes anymore it's a giraffe that's fallen into a pothole and we sit and we go the ANC sucks this is bad this is bad but we are not getting motivated in big business I also think that that because maybe because their businesses but they focused very much on their own stuff you know and and I don't know is there is there this this crossover this cross-pollination yes during covered they were brilliant but you know I don't know I'm lost here and and I don't have an answer except to say I believe in this country and I believe in its people what do you say to that I've been there I've been critical of the business sector in this country and and you can you can read my writings on that but I'm also appreciative of the role that the business sector has played sometimes not publicly behind the scenes so you know in in keeping this country together had it not been for the business sector in in this country our collapse would have been even more precipitous the business sector plays a very very important part in this country in there in holding this country together what I've been saying is that they need to be more proactive they know they need to be more assertive and I was very glad to see was to see him of usual taking a stance on this issue of escrow when when she appeared before Scopa last week you know the CEO of a business leadership sort of and business needs to speak up and needs to be more assertive and and that's what some of the leaders are doing now but I just want to say and there's a lot of the business sector does behind the scenes you know in simple things like in centering with some companies they fix the pothole when I are not aware of but I've got to know them through my association with a business you know businesses and as a professor of international business so I spend a lot of time talking to business leaders and business executives there's a lot of things that they're doing that make up for the failures of the of the government I think what frustrates the business sector is a is the failure of government to implement policies so you spoke about all these lovely documents the Constitution the national development plan we have fantastic blueprint stated you know we our policies are very good policies but there's been a failure of of implementation because of the problems that we've had over the years you know largely revolving around leadership and governance when I talk about governance and for instance I'm talking about the public service when you look development plan it talks about building and professional capable ethical public service but nothing has happened you know we countries that do very well and we saw that during COVID that do very well are countries with strong capable competent public sectors you know like China like Singapore like the Scandinavian countries like Germany they did very well during COVID because of the strong public service and we don't have that so there's been a lot of talk we're about the only country that talks about building a an ethical competent public service but nothing happens and when you ask the question why you'll see the answer is there's no political will to build a strong public service in this country so that is a governance issue the leadership issue maybe they always joke that it's a success in ANC leaders you know they like to flock to to China to on a effect finding missions and and and and that's a good thing that's a good thing but I have yet to know exactly what it is that they learn when they go there because if you're talking about leadership and talking about execution capabilities the ability to implement policies China is a very good example of that see up all the very good example of that Japan I don't know what our leaders go there for you know because they don't internalize those lessons when you look at the cabinets in China you would never ever rise to the top you'll never rise to the top David if you don't have the necessary experience administrative political technical experience those people who are the apex of leadership in China they represent the top leadership that tried and tested so you never rise to the top we never get into cabinet the way in this country getting into cabinet like most events is one but nothing nothing to offer this country so we need to focus on the collaborations between business and other non-state actors and government and there's a great deal of goodwill on the part of this to make this country where but the country is being failed by political leadership and I'm sorry to have on that because that's the reality of the situation right the political leadership has failed this country tremendously indeed it has Mills we're running out of time which I always seem to do when we get into great discussions like this when we come back we're gonna wrap up and finish up with Mills Shoko about his books at Africa and the world of political economy journey through time we'll be back in just a bit this is what's involved don't forget to subscribe and leave a review more next and we're back wrapping it up with my guest Mills Shoko Mills so in your book you take us on a journey and we haven't gone through half of the book yet but I think we've spoken in broad strokes about the contents of the book this is a book that I recommend you should read whether you're into economics or not but just so that you can see that there are people like Mills out there that are taking the time to think about and analyze these things and and come up with solutions now Mills talking about solutions so what can we do so if somebody's listening to the show whether they're in business they're a small business they may not even be in business what can we do where do we start because I think that's the big problem if I think back to the 70s and the 80s and the protests and the mass movements people stood together and were and that's what caused the change because they stood up and they said this far and no further and yet over the the intervening years we've kind of gone it's not okay but all right you know I don't expect us to do anything it's the government what can we change where do we start yeah David before I talk about solutions very quickly I want to say you know this book is is about South Africa but it's also about the world so it's about South Africa as well as South Africa's place in the world and it what it demonstrates amongst other things that our problems are not unique we tend to think that we're exceptional in this country our problems are not unique other countries face similar problems but they approach those problems differently and I think that in this country we have the solutions and when you look at the National Development Plan and I would encourage people to read this is available the National Development Plan it sets out in detail the problems that we have and how they should be resolved and this has been adopted as an official document of the government but it has not been implemented so what I think we need in this country we have an abundance of talent as I say we need a unified vision which is articulated in the National Development Plan we need the leadership both in business in government in a in the labor sector in the no state we need that leadership unified vision which can bring everybody together so we can solve the problems a lot of these problems are being solved despite the government if I may say despite the government they are being solved by South Africans who take it upon themselves to deal with whether it's a local government level whether it's a their school level whether it's you know South Africans have taken this upon themselves to do but on a on a on a national scale we need a unified vision and we need all the various stakeholders to work together under that unified vision to to do this and there are examples of this a good example I can keep now on the African continent is a wonder under pork agami you know they've demonstrated that they went through a terrible terrible experience you know a genocide genocide and you know when we became a democracy they were going through a genocide but look how they they've pulled themselves but their bootstraps and there you know is a country that on it that is on a path you know to success and we can do that also as long as we have that unified unified vision and so the leadership to implement the National Development Plan which is a blueprint which has they've gone into detail about the the problems that we face but they also provide solutions we need a political will to implement that yeah I'm thinking about this and you know maybe maybe for me it's it's way too optimistic or something but I firmly believe when we get this right and we are going to get it right Africa is going to be the continent that everybody else turns to you and we are going to become the next superpower as long as we don't sort of vote in somebody like a Trump because for so many years the the states was was held up as this absolute ideal of what democracy should be and then they voted in somebody like Trump and all these other issues came so you're right in that sense we're not we're not as bad okay there's other people that have had way longer to practice this democracy thing than we have and they still screwing it up so I think that ultimately people will be able to turn to the African continent and to Africa because again and I've said this before I think we have got the most amazing people and particularly here in South Africa and and we can we just need to get off our butts and do it now Mills before I let you go one thing I always like to ask my guests is what's next what's next for Milsoko you know there is part of me that's hoping that he's gonna say well I'm looking at politics again but you tell me I love politics but I think I would like to believe that what I do best is to nurture the next generation of leaders so I'm in a very privileged position teaching in a top business school where I get to work with some very very talented young people and and and it always makes me happy to see how they go on to take up leadership positions whether it's in government or business in this country and abroad so I have decided that what I can do and what I do best is to nurture the next generation of leaders and also I'm also available to provide advice and where we need it and and there's some leaders in government and business who come to me for us and and I appreciate that so I am committed to this country I'm very positive about this country like you are very optimistic about the African continent that some countries that are doing very well like Kenya like Ghana like Rwanda and and we there's no reason we can't do it ourselves but right now I don't want to get involved in active politics I'm happy where I am you know to nurture the next generation of leaders well you know what Mills I think you know we need people like you and then yeah you're absolutely right nurturing the next generation the book is it it's available online as well as it could bookstores yes they available bookstores available online Amazon and it's also available from a take a lot it's widely available wonderful stuff and as I said this this is this is a great book from the moment it landed on my desk to you to now when I got to talk to you I thought this this book we need more of this in in our country and we need more dialogue we need to talk more because that's also the problem is you know we all we fail miserably as a population in general in communicating with each other and and kind of finding some common ground well thank you so much is there a possibility of another book if all the cuts watch this face wonderful stuff well I hope that as soon as it's released you get you to chat to me I'm gonna put my request in first for that thing thank you very much David I appreciate you appreciate this opportunity wonderful stuff there we go wraps it up for this edition of what's involved with my special guest professor Mills so-called get get the book read it okay it's called South Africa and the world a political economy journey through time and it is incredibly well written even me who doesn't do economics and politics thoroughly enjoyed this book Sagat and get it as I said it wraps it up to each and every one of you look after yourselves take care and thank you for listening thanks for listening to what's involved we hope this episode inspires you to find your passion and live your dream don't forget to rate review and share the podcast and to see what's happening what's going on and what's coming follow what's involved on Facebook and Twitter at what's involved thanks again for listening