Matt Brown — The Matt Brown Show and Digital Kung Fu

This makes 93.8 a legendary radio for you on a Monday night as we do each and every Monday at this time, it's time for what's involved. And my guest in studio tonight, I would say needs no introduction, but I'm going to give him one. Anyway, it is none other than Matt Brown from the Matt Brown show. How's it, Matt? Hello, David. How's it going? Good. It's good to have you here. I'm just telling you in here, all my fault, let's just get that out there. All water under the bridge now. But you're here now, and I got to tell you, I was absolutely fascinated on two accounts. You've got a podcast called the Matt Brown show, which from what I can gather is a little similar to what I do, but different. And then you've got digital kung fu, and then there's a bunch of other things. So we're going to get onto those. And I'm also going to ask you when you sleep a little later on, because it doesn't seem like you do a whole lot. So let's start off. Who is Matt? Where does Matt come from and what sort of journey took you to ending up doing tech stuff and the podcast? Because I mean, podcasting in South Africa specifically is a very, very lonely place to hang out. Absolutely true. 100% true. Yeah.

So I'm the founder of nine companies, six failed miserably, lost the shirt off my back several times, and two of those I built and sold in this third one's looking rather peachy, digital kung fu. And basically, that was really probably the biggest reason why I started the podcast because popularized media, business media was really portraying entrepreneurship in a way that wasn't entirely true. Having failed more times than I care to remember, and obviously failure being not sexy at all, right? It's just you want the headline from zero to 500 million in three years. And no failure happened in between that the quickest overnight success that's taken the longest time. Yeah, but that's what kids take out of it, you know? And so the podcast really was about connecting entrepreneurs together and letting them know primarily that that they're not alone and what they feel on a daily basis, the struggle on a daily basis is natural and normal. And but the problem that that really I've encountered is that the scooting system isn't really built to encourage an entrepreneurial mindset. It's like if you take failure, for instance, failure is not something that you do at all, right? You've got to get good grades at school, etc, etc.

And so, but in the real world, failure is necessary to become a success. Failure is an option. Yeah. You know, the latest thinking is fail fast and fail forward. But tell me a little bit more about Matt. I mean, you're not a Joe Berg boy, where were you born schooling? What made Matt into a digital Kung Fu expert and a podcaster? I was born in Cape Town. And then I pretty much lived overseas for the better part of 12 years, lived all over the world, London, started in tech at Accenture for my sins, and part of the whole globalization movement back in the early 2000s, around about 9/11. And then basically started a number of businesses, one was a record label, which was the first one that I sold. I was very young at the time thought I knew it all, which was a completely incorrect mindset to have at any point in your life. And then consequently, wrote a book about super yachts and how to get a job in the kind of travel and leisure industry. And that did really well. I started writing, wrote a very popular blog, which got picked up by the media in the US, and that got me into America. And so basically, I've always been involved somehow for some weird reason as a content producer and in the media space.

It just is a weird thing that you just, for some reason, naturally gravitated towards. And that still to this day is true. The digital kung fu being a tech startup that builds the sales pipelines for technology businesses. We'll talk about that in just a little bit, but I want to get onto the podcasting thing. So you were just sitting around one day, were you back in this, where did you first come across podcasting? I was actually doing research, I was sitting in a dead end job for my sins, I was kind of in that middle ground trying to work out what my next entrepreneurial play was going to be at a big ad agency, I was head of innovation for 12 companies in the group there, but deeply unfulfilled and kind of had that itch to go and start something new. So I was Googling just trends, media trends, what was happening out there, et cetera. And podcasting in America was just huge, but locally, there was no real market to speak of, no real data. And so I thought, you know what, what I'm going to do is I'm just going to get, do a couple of interviews, maybe two or three absolute most, I'm not going to do more than that, just to get some pre-launch content put together for a new content platform whose vision was really to put big agency thinking into the hands of the small business, a small businessman who can't afford the big fees of big agencies, but can easily execute on the knowledge capital that exists there.

And that's really where it started. And my first interview was with Arthur Goldstack, it was a complete shambles. And I, and I really, really sucked at podcasting. It was, it was a very real thing for me, because weirdly enough, my listeners today wouldn't say so, but I'm very much an introvert. So I actually like having conversations only where there's a microphone present. Otherwise if there's any other kind of environments, I tend to only hang out with people I know and like, otherwise strangers are bad. Strangely enough, I'm very much like that. Somebody said to me, why are you on radio? I said, I love people. I just don't want to have to see them all the time. So, you know, but that's absolutely true. And so, but the thing about sucking at something is that it gives you the chance to start getting good at something. What did you start with? I mean, did you go out and, and I mean, I suppose what we would South Africans have a reference to Joe Rogan show, London real. Did you, did you go look at those things and go, okay, I need the big fancy desks like, like we have here at mix, or did you just start with, with a little recorder? I started over Skype because even though like Arthur, for instance, he actually stays in Joe Rick like me and I still did it over Skype because I didn't actually want to meet the guy face to face.

It was that bad. And you know, I used to, you know, script all the interviews. It wasn't really a conversation. It was really bad basically. And the funny thing was that the more I did it, the better at it I became. And instead of trying to invite people onto the show, people started being referred. And I just got lucky, the media space moved exponentially. We did a whole bunch of research funny enough into podcasting last year, it was supported by traditional radio, Jacaranda, East coast radio, et cetera, did a lot of online direct marketing surveys and stuff. Podcasting is way bigger than people think it is. But not South African podcasting, because I know lots of people that listen to, to international podcasts. They would listen to just about anything and to a large degree, we've kind of, the spirit of podcasting is the lone wolf going out and starting the show, et cetera, et cetera. What I've done and what a lot of people have done is literally turned a radio show into a podcast as well. And I kind of, you know, there's that part of me that's a bit of a purist and even as far as I'm concerned, I'm like, yeah, you're not really a podcaster, you're more of a broadcaster that just gives out content on another platform.

But I mean, you talk about it, your eyes light up. So I'm going to talk about podcasting in South Africa when we come back. My guest in studio, we chatting to Matt Brown from the Matt Brown Show and Digital Kung Fu and a couple of other bits and pieces, we'll be back with him in just a bit. David Watts on Mix 93.8. What's involved on this Monday night, Matt Brown, my guest in studio, we're talking podcasting. So we're going to talk about that for a bit more, then we're going to get onto all the other stuff. I hope we're going to fit it into an hour. So you started off, you did it via Skype, but it's a passion. I mean, I can see that. How long has the Matt Brown Show been going for? Three years now. Okay. And your first podcast you said was not the best. How was the second and third? Pretty bad. Are they still available online? They are. And please do not go there. Whatever you do. It's still cringing. Someone actually mailed me the other day, she said, "You know, I finally listened to all your podcasts." I was like, "No, don't do that." But today it's a very different animal. It's built myself a network all over the world. I pretty much interviewed all the who's who of the South African business space.

And it's grown into something that's bigger than myself. The only thing that I probably regret over the last three years is that it's called the Matt Brown Show, because it's got my name attached to it. And my hope is that one day it would be bigger than myself, but unfortunately it's attached to my name. The Matt Brown Show brought to you by Fred Bloggs, probably. I know, exactly. I don't know if that works so much. No, I've got to say, I wanted to say initially, good evening, gentlemen, but I am trying to ignore the other two people in the studio because they are standing behind cameras. Have you now moved into that, or is it like a South African version of the Joe Rogan Show? That's pretty much where it's evolved. I started off doing interviews in boardrooms, then I started doing live shows in front of 600 people when the Bitcoin price was at its peak in January last year. So we're doing live shows that were broadcast all around the world. I think the last count was like 252 countries live, 600 people. So it came a long way in a very short period of time. I grew a hell of a lot in that period in order to kind of hold off. I mean, it's a crazy thing. We started CNBC, started a TV show inside my show with 600 people live in the audience.

It was crazy. And so it's just naturally, you naturally have to push the boundaries. I guess in the radio paradigm, it's quite easy to stay comfortable, but I get uncomfortable with being comfortable. And so I try and push things further and further. And so part of doing the live shows was obviously video, because we were live broadcasting. And I think on one show, we had a viewership in 80 countries around the world. And I was like, well, you can't really ignore the numbers. And so then now we've started to do the video formats of the show. And off the back of that, I think, which was the numbers, I think it's like 150 odd thousand minutes were streamed in about eight weeks. And then Amazon, we did a deal with Amazon Prime. So the show is now available on Amazon Prime. So it's just naturally extended beyond, you know, you've thought a lot about this and you thought a lot more about it than, then, then sort of your average podcaster would. So let's talk to me about average podcasters now, South Africa, are they a lot? Are they not a lot? As you mentioned something else, I mean, there's a lot of dead and dying podcasts with three episodes. You've built yourselves up. How do you sort of on your podcast, do you go, okay, I can see how many downloads I've had this week?

Yeah, I've got a team of, I think, four people working full time on the show, you know, how much hard work it is. And that's the point. It's like when you start something like this, you have to be in it for at least a year, because it is hard work. You're still refining your craft, right? You still have to build an audience, but building an audience today is harder than it's ever been before. By the way, I've never spent a cent on advertising, not one cent. So this has all been organic and just through hard work and perseverance. That is pretty darn impressive. So it's a nothing, no Google AdWords, nothing, no Facebook advertising, you've just grown, but obviously you've got a huge social media reach. You must have. Yeah. Well, it's mainly on the audio formats of the show. So obviously with podcast syndication networks and obviously your big ones, like Google Play, Spotify and all that stuff, but it's hard to reach them. In other words, they can reach me, but it's hard to reach them. So it's frustrating the way that the ecosystem is built, which is interesting because to your earlier point, there's a graveyard of podcasters that started and then failed because I love it when people say, you know, one day I want to start a podcast and like fantastic.

You come and speak to me in six months time because like 99 out of a hundred of them would have stopped because of the hard work it requires to actually do great content consistently. Well, I think that's the point though. It's the consistently part of it that is the problem. How big would you say the podcast market is in South Africa? I mean, I don't see unless you can tell me differently. Advertisers beating down podcasters doors here, certainly not like they do in the States with the likes of a Pat Flynn. I'm sure you know who Pat Flynn is. Yeah. So the total addressable market from our research is 16 million people. That's the addressable market, the total number of people who have the availability to access a podcast today via smartphone. Weekly consumption was I think 6 million people listen to podcasts per week in South Africa. Look, the data doesn't lie. In fact, all the data is on our website so I can give you the link for the show notes to go and have a look. We looked at consumption attitudes, where they consume podcasts, is data an issue, which by the way it isn't. Everyone says, "Oh, no one's going to in South Africa developing economy like data. No one's going to pay for the data." Data is expensive.

But here's the thing, people will pay for content they want. That's the key thing. And entertainment is the most popular category then followed by news, et cetera. And when you look at the categories of content that people consume in the on-demand space, meaning podcasting, it pretty much mirrors what you will find in radio. And in fact, how people view podcasts is an extension of radio. The only difference being is that they want content on their terms. So, you know, like you play music just now. It's like, "Well, what if I didn't want that?" They want a different listening experience. If they just want talk or just want information or just want a certain genre of music. Absolutely. And they're listening to podcasts in different situations and contexts while they're running on the road, while they are cooking. That's a funny thing. They were like, "Where do you listen to podcasts the most?" At home was, I think, the second highest category outside of in the car or while transporting in work. Yeah, that's me. I listen when I'm in the car. Yeah, it's like you download on Wi-Fi and you listen in the car and then you download again at the office. Any advice for aspiring podcasters? Don't quit.

Don't give up. I mean, the reason why those six businesses of mine failed was simply because things got really hard for me in whatever way that was, either financially or just because I fell out of love with the vision that I had for the business. And that's the only reason why people really quit at the end of the day is because they decide to stop. And that's why you have this graveyard of, you know, could have been podcasts, you know, the land of like crash dreams. Perhaps we should start a support group. We should. You could actually do very well. We're turning to Matt Brown of the Matt Brown show, also Digital Kung Fu. When we come back, we'll be fighting a little bit more about Digital Kung Fu because that part of the business fascinates me. David Watts on Mix 93.8. Not lingering at all as my special guest in studio tonight, Matt Brown. So we've talked about the Matt Brown show, so let's just wrap that up if people want to find out about the Matt Brown show, because there's some great content. I'm a little jealous, got to tell you. Anyway, we're getting there. I aspire to the kind of content that Matt has on his show. Where does somebody go to get it? You can just go to mattbrownshow.com or just Google Matt Brown show or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.

We're everywhere basically. So iTunes, Stitcher. Literally everywhere. iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play, the whole shebang. So the Matt Brown show or just mattbrownshow.com. That's the one. Mattbrownshow.com. Cool. Talk to me about Digital Kung Fu. You said a little bit in the beginning and then you used words that confused me. For the slow kids in the class, what does Digital Kung Fu do? We build sales and marketing pipelines for technology businesses. So we're in the B2B space. We are just over a year old. We've just won the Best Tech Startup in Africa award. You say this, just over a year. That's flipping amazing. Thank you. Yeah. It's impressive. We're very humbled by it. It all kind of just happened. It wasn't even something we necessarily orchestrated. We were nominated to submit an entry. You still don't know to this day who on the judging panel did that. And yeah, we fortunately walked away with the award about four weeks ago. So that's a big feather in your cap. Okay, so explain this again to me, but seriously, like I was for. So it's business to business, sales. What do you do? Lead generation? That's it. Yeah. So lead generation, and then we do accounts based marketing, which is one of the very white hot trends at the moment in the B2B sort of sales space.

Just a quick, let's just do this before we continue anymore. If you'd like to have a chat to Matt, post any comments, you can SMS us 41348, SMS is charged at one ran 50, alternatively, WhatsApp us 0848220938, that's 0848220938. Love to hear from you. Any questions from Matt, anything you'd like us to ask him, you're more than welcome to do so. Right. Now we've gotten rid of that. Let's continue. Thanks for that. Well, I'm hoping that somebody can give you some intelligently difficult questions. But so explain how this is going to benefit me as a business. Is this for big corporates or do you care about the little guy as well? We do. We do. But importantly, we only work with tech businesses. So either technology groups like BCX or software OEMs or original equipment manufacturers. So like Microsoft or first distribution, the distributors of Azure and products like that. But in essence, what we do is we help technology business get their story across to their customers or their intended customers. So tech people are really awesome at technology, not so great at getting that story across. So really what makes digital kung fu difference in what we've built a lot of IP on is storytelling.

So stories just like podcasting stories are make complicated things understandable, memorable, and relatable and sticky. And so that really is what makes our clients excited to work with digital kung fu and our ninjas there. It's an amazing thing that you're saying this because I do a lot of work with a mate of mine. We spoke briefly off here about it, the sales institute. And in the sales space, we're using a lot of storytelling techniques now. Because that is the thing that's working. The old way of selling is gone. It's dead. It doesn't work anymore. Yes. And you're selling in the tech space as well. You must freak these people out when you tell them to tell stories. Well look, I think what they're excited about is seeing their stories come to life. And what's really interesting is that we go to great lengths to say that we're not an agency, even though we have digital in our brand name, digital kung fu. It's just that we're fast agencies, literally we were in a meeting with a big telco last week with the agency from a global advertising agency in the room literally saying, "We can't do this." "Please can you do it," sort of thing. And that's why we got the phone call. It's because storytelling is one of the age-old skills that human beings are just hardwired for.

It's like if you know that a story essentially is a sequence of events that leads to something, and you know that it's formulaic inherently, and there's a number of different formulas that you can use. There's Story Brand, there's The Hero's Journey by Joseph Campbell, and there's many, many others. Did you do the Story Brand thing? Yes, we did a jump. Okay, but your version of Story Brand, not the book Story Brand. No, no, no. So basically what we've done is we did a lot of research into storytelling formulas essentially and frameworks, and we've kind of bastardized that now and kind of really put it together with something called category design. So category design essentially is the process of marketing a problem that a market doesn't know they have yet, or if they are experiencing the pain already, you're putting a different label on the problem that they have. And so the insight basically is if you market a problem better than the competition, you'll win. So for instance, in our space, while we might be doing lead generation, we say, the first thing that I said was that we build sales and marketing pipelines. We're pipeline builders. And so in other words, it's a clever way of creating a white space or blue ocean as the blue ocean strategy book essentially tabled as a point of view, but really it's about creating a space that you can own because right now in the B2B space, it's super cluttered.

There's a lot of people are just kind of numb with advertising, so advertising doesn't work. And so really it's about story and bringing that across its scale. You're sitting here telling a radio person that advertising doesn't work. The sad part is I agree with you. It is a scary thing because I mean, if you think about it, we're on a radio station and unless you can make your ad stand out in some way, it's just you're getting the clutter all the time. Yeah. So what you're doing is brilliant. Now, just I got to stop you there because I'm looking at the t-shirt, where did digital kung fu come from? Yeah, it's martial arts for businesses. So it's a skill set that anyone can adopt and learn or any brand can learn and adopt and execute. And that was pretty much the premise. Okay. Good stuff. So now, when you're doing this digital kung fu for people, it's not enough for you just to do digital kung fu, but I want to get on to the next thing. Oh, will this chat be online and if so where I need to listen again and have my business partner listen too? That's from Marcia. It will be online on a number of places. If I can get my website back up and running, it'll be on what'sinvolved.co.za or what'sinvolved.com and your website.

Yeah, it'll be digitalkungfu.co.za or you can just grab the show off our YouTube channel or on our podcast, we'll resindicate it for you. There we go. And that should be in the next couple of days. Yeah. Mine will hopefully be in the next couple of days as well. He says fingers crossed. So there you go, Marcia. Love your business partner to listen to it. Love that kind of feedback and info as well. So I'm a digital, I'm a tech startup company, a product of one of these business incubator places and I'm going, okay, I've made this brilliant thing app. Do I come to you and say, how do I sell it? No. No. Okay. I'm not the kind of person you want to speak to. No, no, not really. We work with technology businesses that have some kind of product in market already and some revenue. Aha. Okay. So we're in the business of really getting products to market at scale and essentially in helping clients capture as much market share as possible. So startups are great to work with. We have consulted for the last two years, we started Bootcamp. I know personally all the venture capitalists in South Africa just through the podcast, the guys from Knife Capital, Cloud, Bootcode, Caroline Venture Partners, et cetera.

So we're actually working with Knife Capital now as part of their Grindrod Accelerator program which just launched here in Johannesburg. And so startups are an interesting space. It's tough out there. I mean, we're still cutting our teeth in many respects, it's never really over. So like the definition of an entrepreneur is someone who wants to jump out of an airplane with nothing but a silkworm thinking that he's an overachiever. Go on, you can do it. Make that parachute. That's it. And you have to do that. You have to build that parachute on the way down. But startups are an interesting space, they're just not where we really, you know, specialise. All right. But that wasn't enough for you. I mean, you've won the award now, you're going to be travelling overseas as well, you mentioned. But you are now doing two more things. And the one thing you mentioned to me is something called, and I'm noticing the martial arts theme here, which I'm liking, is the Dreamers Dojo. What is the Dreamers Dojo? The Dreamers Dojo is essentially a giving back initiative. So it is based on the insight that the schooling system is producing the youth for irrelevance. They're a production line for irrelevance, especially in the context of the world that we're about to inherit, which is largely dominated and driven through exponential technology.

And McKinsey Global Institute published a study recently saying that by 2030, about a billion jobs are going to be automated. So it's the whole thing is what, you know, how do you create relevance in that paradigm of thinking? This is this whole fourth industrial revolution that we're talking about, and everybody's going out to Africa. It's not going to touch us. Well, you know, I spoke to Salim Ismail, one of the founders of Singularity, filling out Africa Tech Week, where he won the award. And what is abundantly clear is that no market is not going to be impacted by this. And so if you want financial independence as an 18 year old today, you've got to give up on the idea of the J-O-B in many respects. So the J-O-B for me means just over broke. Absolutely. And so, you know, and I've learned how to build financial independence for myself. All businesses fail often. And just by connecting with influencers such as yourself and other extremely popular and successful business people and business leaders, I do, I do see, I dropped that in deliberately. But it's possible for anyone. It's just that your inner game is what really matters. And so the dream is Dojo is a structured intervention designed to essentially expose kids to entrepreneurial mindsets at school.

I think that's outstanding because for years I've said my entrepreneurial journey would have been so much easier if I was taught entrepreneurial skills at school as opposed to the stuff I was taught. Well, yeah, they taught me. I didn't necessarily learn. Yeah. But but it was. And I mean, but this sounds almost this almost smacks of a little bit of conscious capitalism on your part. Why? Because I think it's a brilliant thing to do. Conscious capital, interesting term, conscious capitalism. So the thing for me is that I agree with you, you know, I look back at the last 20 years of business and how if I just had that one conversation, you know, when I was about to give up with someone that said, Matt, you're here for a reason. Here's why don't give up that little in that one conversation could have changed the trajectory of my entire life. And so I, you know, I had to learn it myself. There were no books about entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurship wasn't a thing, you know, when I started starting businesses. Now today it's cool. It's sexy. It's like, I know entrepreneurship. Everyone wants to jump on the entrepreneurship bandwagon and they should be because today with the access to tools and information that you have at your disposal, it's incredible what you can achieve.

Anybody can literally start a business and I mean, online and in ways we haven't even thought about yet. Absolutely. Here's the thing. Entrepreneurship is something that anyone can do, but it's not for anyone. So my points of view is very simply this, is that what makes someone successful as an entrepreneur and what makes someone fail? And for me, it comes down to the operating system that you use, a set of principles that govern your decision making, regardless of what's happening outside you in the world of technology and business. Because if you know how to make decisions in the right way and understand that decisions have consequences, you start to realize that decisions are actually your ultimate power because when you truly decide to do something, the rest just takes care of itself. I've just got another message in here. The school's idea of entrepreneurial anything is biz, ek, and one market day a year. Exactly. So how true is that? It's 100% true. So here's the thing. Everybody is trying to help entrepreneurs, but no one's really conducting the ecosystem. So for me, there's not much that I can do to affect the entire ecosystem outside of the channels that I own, like the podcast or initiatives like the Dreamers Dojo.

But whatever it is, I think it's important to land the point that going to a school and doing a talk is fine and it's great, but it's not enough. If you're going to create a structured intervention or activation at a school's level, it needs to leave a legacy. It needs to be autonomous, self-organizing just like Ted, the brand, self-organizing and it needs to live beyond what a single intervention can do. So is this up and running or is it in the process? We're still defining the structure. So for instance, I can tell you what to be currently working with. The idea being is that it's a three-day intervention. We do a call to action across the entire country, South Africa, and we ask for schools to submit teams of four between the ages of say, 16 to 21. Their maths come from a math, science, engineering or business studies background. We bring them up to Johannesburg. It's funded by someone. We're still looking for a partner in the space. Nudge. Nudge. Wink. Wink. If you're listening. Yes, exactly. Thank you. And so we basically run the first day and land the idea of exponential relevance. What does it mean to be relevant in a world driven through exponential technology? What are these technologies that are underpinning and shaping the current states of the world that we live in?

Not just today, but in the future. The second day is all about human principles for an exponential time. This is the principles that I write about in my book. And then the third day is about hacking real world African problems with these teams facilitated and mentored by, for instance, an organization like Singularity, not necessarily them in this case, but an organization like that with a panel winning or adjudicating a winning business case idea. That product actually then being funded and taken to the real world. But now all the kids that go there become the alumni. And so then they go off and become the kind of foot soldiers for the idea around the Jimus Dojo. And so they start to self organize. That's the idea of a time. Fantastic idea. Fantastic idea. I want to hear more about that. So we're going to have to bring you back, I'm afraid, because we're running out of time again. No problem. But I always like to ask my guests if they're going to give away something, if there's some value that they can give to our listeners over and above what you've already given us in terms of the Matt Brown show. So you said you're going to be giving away what today? So we've got a white paper for businesses or business owners.

It's called Inside B2B Lead Generation. It was researched and produced by Digital Kung Fu. And really at tables, how do you grow your business at scale using techniques that we've learnt and applied in the worlds of some of the biggest and most successful technology companies in our portfolio? You will have my email in your inbox first thing tomorrow morning. Where do we actually go to ask for this? You can just drop me an email at hello@digitalkungfu.co.za or go to our website digitalkungfu.co.za. So hello@digitalkungfu.co.za. If you'd like to get that white paper, depends how generous Matt is feeling tomorrow morning, you may or may not get it. Are you going to be generous? You're going to send out a bunch. If somebody asks, you'll give it to them. I think so. Awesome. That's the kind of stuff I like to hear. Hello@digitalkungfu.co.za. White paper on lead generation, business to business, lead generation. And I said I was going to ask you if you ever sleep. And the reason is, just before we wrap up tonight, you're writing a book as well? Yeah, well, it's done. Done, finished. Yeah, it's coming. Okay, it's getting published. Yes, that's right. It's coming out. It's published already by Tracy McDonald Publishers.

She did Eric's book actually. My next guest. My next guest, yeah. And it's coming out in July. It's called In A Game or Your In A Game, 12 Principles for High Impact Entrepreneurs. Okay. How long did that take you? And where did you find time? With all these other award-winning and stuff you were doing. Exactly. It took a year of finding time somewhere. Because, I'm sure you don't mind if I say that, but you're married as well. Absolutely, yeah. I mean, do you get sort of emails from your wife saying please send recent photo so the dog won't bite you when you get home? Yeah, exactly. It's hard to manage. Balance is a thing that is a myth in my world, really. I think if you're an entrepreneur, I think you generally battle with balance. Yeah, it's work-work balance. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so that's coming out in July. I'm going to have to ask you right now. I'll put you on the spot. I'd love to have you back. Thank you. Anytime. So we can chat about the book when it's out, when it's launched, and we can see exactly what it's like. We are running out of time, as I said. Matt Baum, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure. It's been a whirlwind hour, this one. So you've given away the white paper.

We said hello@digitalkungfu.co.za. Wait, somebody says, "Can he choose a song since it's a half-music show?" No, but thanks, Nick, but no, trying to choose a song. You can choose any song you like, as long as it's Dire Straits Romeo and Juliet. Sounds great. Do you like your big Dire Straits? In fact, that was the song I had in mind. I thought it was, you see? We are telepathetic on this radio station. Here we go. Matt Baum, thank you so much. You can check it out, the Matt Baum Show. Look for that, mattbaumshow.com, otherwise, digitalkungfu.co.za. David Watts on Mix 93.8.