Dennis Vaden — State 5 coffee time to get caffeinated

It's a Monday night as we do each and every Monday night at this time, it's time for what's involved. I've got to tell you tonight I was actually, not was, am, still am and still is an R. Very excited about my guest because, well, I'll tell you the story, okay? And let me first introduce you to him and then I'll tell you a little bit about him. Dennis Varden, how's it Dennis? How are you David? Good, good, good, you need to get up nice and cozy up nice and close to that microphone. So we met at, I actually interviewed the guys previously on the show from Game to Change and they had something called a learning lab. And I think you and I, when we heard learning lab, our ears both picked up and went, okay, what is this design thinking of which you speak? We got there, we were all strangers and you were looking for something for your company. You were looking for something specific and we're going to talk about one of your companies to start with. And then we might sort of digress, but it's state five, which is coffee essentially. And everybody got to go into different groups and I went, okay, I know I want to do this stuff and I'm very much into all the online stuff, et cetera, et cetera, but coffee, coffee I haven't done.

So I ended up in your group and we had an absolute ball that day. You and I kind of hit it off from weird go, I think maybe, dare I say this on air, we are both nerds. Yeah, bromance. So, so all of the, all of the nerdy sort of superhero references you and I got, everybody else looked at us as if to say you are seriously weird, but anyway, so, so I said to you at the time, I'd love to have you on the show because just to listen to what you do and how you do and the stuff that you're involved in to me is absolutely fascinating. And I love talking to entrepreneurs on the show and giving people a bit of advice and saying, you know, listen, you know, we kind of, kind of do it and I'm becoming more comfortable in saying that I'm an entrepreneur as well. So let's talk a little bit about Dennis though. Where did you start off and what journey led you to State Five Coffee? Geez, David, would you prefer the long or the short story? Give me the abridged version. I'll give you the abridged version. Started life at a very young age. From the age of one, I think the short of it was from the age of 13, I've been working. So I started weightoring at a very early age. I'd work, well, anything between four or five times a week.

And I think weightoring was a great way for me to learn people skills, learn how to sell, all those things that you require as an entrepreneur. And by age 17 and a half, when I matriculated, my brother had got involved in a Steelers outlet and he invited me to join him. So literally I was involved in my first business at the age of 17 and a half, which was the stairs. Okay. We did quite well there. We bought and sold, got into another stairs in the tower, which is a 24 hour outlet. Were you born and raised and bred in the tower? No, I went to Kez and moved down almost, I think it was about a year after, a year and a half after. We got into this 24 hour shop, which is the second busiest stairs in the country at that stage. It was 80 staff members, three shifts. It was, I lived on vitamin B injections, diet, cokes, and cigarettes, literally was what kept me alive. And yeah, that was a very interesting story. Even to this day, if I'm ever having really bad months or very bad days or bad moments, I put myself back into that situation dealing with, it was really the low end of humanity, for once a better word in the middle of town. And I can only think how grateful I am for the position I'm in, but moving on from there, I've been involved in double-decker buses, which are at least from the council.

I started selling, buying and selling double-decker buses at the age of 21. What was that company called? The Rickshaw Bus in Natal. I remember that. It was an open top party bus company. And then we started buying buses in Joburg, renovating them, fixing them up and selling them to big groups like ABI and SAB, Gold Circle Racing. Can you imagine trying to sell the bus, at the tender age of 21, I've never done any sales in my life and I have to phone these big corporates and go, would you be interested in buying a double-decker bus? Would you like a bus? Sure. Sure, we'll have two. But no, it was more along the lines of, get out of the marketing department, work my way through. It was such a great way for me to learn how to sell. From there, we sold the steers. I got involved in a coffee shop, from a coffee shop into a soap shop with a coffee shop. Then I got involved in a furniture factory, where I lost everything at the age of 28. Like everything. Severely in debt, like severely. It left me destitute for once for a better word, owing people a hell of a lot of money. I was known as a fairly good operator, so I was offered a share in quite a good nightclub called Tiger Tiger in Johannesburg and I was told I could operate it and the major shareholder would write the checks.

I literally paid off every debt that I had within a year and a bit. Every person, no judgements, no sequestration, I literally paid every single thing off. Then started my coffee business 12 years ago in the spare room of my house with two boxes of coffee and 20,000 rand. Just to go back to that, when you lost everything. I think about it when I was involved and, for want of a better word, owned a radio station in Mpumulangi in Nalspe called Radio Safari. So I'd effectively bought over the equipment and the management rights because community stations you can't actually have an owner, it's owned by the community. And I didn't read the fine print and we had, in those days it was the IBA, the Independent Broadcasting Authority. There was complaints by some of the other radio stations that we were actually taking their listeners and turning over some money with advertising. In those days it was very much touched. Also lost everything. My accountant then said, "You know what? Declare yourself in solvent now. Do it because there's no way you're going to get out of this 350,000, which is even more at the end of the day, debt." And I had nothing. And I said, "Actually no, no. Because if I want to stay here in Nalspe where I currently was, I want to be able to walk down the street with my head held high and I did it." And everybody said to me, "You shouldn't have been able to do that." And I think, same thing with you.

So my father taught me when I was very young and he was very inspirational for me, amazing man. He said to me, "The only thing you ever need to keep Dennis is your name. You never ever damage your name." So truth be told, regardless of the amount of money I ever owed or ever would owe if I ever got into that position again, there wouldn't be a person that would not get their cash. Fantastic stuff. It might take a bit longer sometimes, but it is what it is. My special guest in studio tonight, Dennis Varden from State 5. That's the whole name, State 5 Coffee. But I mean, we're getting to the rest of the bits and pieces. When we come back, you mentioned that you started this whole thing in a bedroom. So I want to talk about that when we come back. David Watts on Mix 93.8. It is what's involved, Mix 93.8, legendary radio on a Monday night as we do each and every Monday. My special guest in studio from State 5, Coffee Dennis Varden. So we're talking coffee, one of my favorite, favorite things. Coffee is just one of those things I really love. When you talk about things that are sort of so delightfully bad for you that they're good, coffee is right up there. You said that after all of those experiences, you still sort of decided you wanted to do this thing and you started up your coffee business.

Was it started off as State 5? No. No. It's exactly the same entity, but it was started as a different brand. So we started as, in those days it was called Fresh Brew Coffee Company. And Fresh Brew Coffee Company became Fresh Culture Cafe and Fresh Culture Cafe became State 5 in 12 years. Okay. So there you are in a room in your house and you decided you're not going to sell coffee. What is weirder than that? It was actually an action cricket game where I bumped into a guy who was looking for a different business. I decided to get out of the nightclub. I literally just called it very difficult business and it did well to pay my dues and pay my debts off, but I didn't really want to stay there. So we were playing action cricket and he said to me, "Why don't you start selling coffee for a guy in Cape Town?" I was like, "Okay." Didn't really know a huge amount about coffee. Decided I would do it. This sounds like a theme with entrepreneurs. That's how I've done so many things. Somebody will say something like to me, I'll go, "Yeah, okay. How difficult could it be?" Let's try. Yeah. And then we do and we find out. Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a very period of time changed, but yeah, I think that the most important thing was it was cell phone, box of coffee, my old pugil and I just started phoning everyone I know.

So it was, I think I would recommend that for any entrepreneur and any small business owner that is starting, literally leverage your network and don't be shy to do it. So phone, phone, phone, phone, phone everyone and tell them you're a small business. Tell them you need the business, you'd appreciate the support. And I think you'll be very surprised what a large network you have regardless of who you are. Who you know. I've got to, I have to agree with you there and I'll tell you why. Because I was told so many times, "David, you know so many people. Use your network. You know so many people. You know, six degrees of separation. If you don't, you know, you don't get, not be able to get what you want right now." Somebody that you know will be able to refer you on and I was like, "No, I can't do that. No, I don't really know that many people." As soon as I did and you know what, everybody was like, "Yeah, well, why haven't you asked me long ago?" Exactly. You know, so great piece of advice there. So you started from the bedroom and then where did we go? So essentially what I did is I was selling for a guy in Cape Town. It was an imported Italian product called Portioli that he imported.

I started building that brand up quite, quite well in Johannesburg. Eventually got to a level where it was doing so well. I decided to import my own coffee, which was called Cafe Corsini, also from Italy, and did that for about two, three years. Again, did fairly well, ended up building quite a large brand at that stage, but decided that Italian imported coffee is not the way to go anymore. We want to support locally roasted and that's what we want to do. So we created our own brand called Fresh Culture Cafe, where we would purchase the green beans and we would give them to another roaster and that roaster would roast for us at our spec. Simultaneously, we also opened four of our own coffee shops as well as three franchise stores, all under the Fresh Culture Cafe brand. So we were in St. Mary's, we were in Ernst & Young, we were in BMW. So I know that business quite well and it's a fairly good business. If you open in the right areas in the corporates, you can actually make some good money. And it's essentially just offering them a great coffee solution. And then I met my partners now, which are called DDS, which is Drinks Dispensing Services. And they literally do all the draft tap maintenance for South African breweries countrywide.

And they're a large group and a bunch of amazing guys, they really are. And we started talking about cold brewed coffee, because in the States, cold brewed coffee is a huge thing. And we thought, okay, well, let's launch it in South Africa. So we started pushing, they bought into my business at that stage. We started pushing cold brewed coffee off a draft tap, which again, was quite novel and no one had done, we were the first guys in the country to do it. We still do it. It's been quite a difficult process to teach people how to drink cold coffee. I was gonna say, because as South Africans are strange like that, there's certain things from overseas, we would be very quick on the uptake. And then the others you're going, no, no, I don't think so. Even though it's great, I mean, I did some research after we chatted and cold brewed coffee is massive in the States. In the States, it's about 30% of a, what you'd call a third wave coffee outlets turnover. It's a substantial amount of turnover that they do as cold brewed coffee. It's unbelievable. When I tell you, you know, we do things like pancake lattes, cold brewed coffee tonics, you can add it to alcohol, I like to think of it as coffee mixology.

So you take a cold brewed coffee that's taken you 24 hours to make. You've left it in water. You filtered it. It tastes like literally like dark chocolate and sweetness when it comes out. And then you add it to either tonic to Sprite. I mean, try cold brewed coffee and Sprite tonic, tonic as in tonic, tonic, like a fidget needs tonic, cold brewed, like a shot. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm definitely coming to visit you again. We are trying. And try it and Sprite. So literally you'll see how it changes the whole product. It takes it from super sweet to it gives it this sort of bitter kick, which gives it that much more balance. So we really have played. It hasn't taken off in South Africa. We've taken quite a few arrows in our backs for being first to market. We're going to maintain pushing it. We'd like to do some sort of a deal where we can can it. And I think that, you know, our brand is cool enough to be able to do that because people really love it. And I think that might be the way to do it, to go into an engine store or into one of those select stores and actually have the cold brewed coffee in a can as opposed to just the draft tab. I think that might be a better way to play it. And that's why State 5 was born.

Okay. And now State 5, you now roast, okay. You import your own beans. We don't import our own beans. There's a company that imports locally and we buy from them. And then you roast them yourselves. Exactly. And then it gets distributed to, okay, so you've got State 5 in green side. Yes, which is one of our shops. And where else? In four ways. In four ways. In the Rustic timber center. I got to tell you, every single person that I've now come across when I've spoken about State 5, they're like, yeah, it's like the place to be. I can't believe you hadn't been there before. But last week was the first time that I managed to stop by there. I picked the best day for it because it was, when was it Thursday last week and it was raining and it was miserable. And just to walk into that shop, the food and the coffee, and I got a panda in my coffee in case anybody cares, I got a panda and they didn't even know I was coming. So there you go. That just shows what the guys over there do. How did we get to, just digress a bit. How did we get to State 5 though? So State 5 is so cool. I mean, literally what we, from a branding point of view, we got an advertising agency involved and we were looking for names.

And the way we sort of played with it was we wanted to create our own space. So State, our own area, an ethereal place called State 5. And 5 obviously correlates with the census. So the five census that appeal to you when you drink a cup of coffee. And we basically use that five theme across a number of different advertising and marketing avenues. So we like to consider ourselves our own place, a place of the innovators, a place of the pioneers. You'll always see our products are different. We're the first with cold brew coffee. We always like being first. Yeah. I've noticed this that you guys are incredibly innovative and it is. It's a first thing for you. You have great pride in being first at things like this. You also do corporate solutions, if I'm not mistaken. So you would go and install a machine somewhere and you would then supply them with the coffee, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Exactly. So I think coffee, you have to offer multiple solutions. So we supply other coffee shops and restaurants and we train baristas. So we teach people how to make coffee, which is very close to my heart. It's literally one of the places that I enjoy the most, being able to upscale people. I mean, we've probably trained, no jokes, I've probably trained over a thousand people in our business in the time we've been open for free.

And these people have been able to go out there and get work. Corporates, huge part of our business where we either lease or loan a coffee machine to the corporate and we supply them our locally roasted coffee. The big thing about coffee for me is, is it fresh? We call ourselves a craft coffee company, not an artisan coffee company. We could be considered either, but by craft coffee, we sort of, I think we tag onto the craft beer avenue, locally roasted, fresh, delivered to your door within a week of actually being roasted. It's a very big thing because it's one of the things that I've learned because from the moment those beans are roasted, they start to oxidize, am I correct? Which then affects the flavor. That's why very often, and I didn't know this until I was told, even if you get beans in a bag and whatever the case may be, don't ground them and leave that, ground it, use it immediately, but then keep the bag cooled, sealed in an airtight container. And I was like, you know, coffee beans, how can they go off? But they do and it changes the flavor. They don't go off, off, I mean, you can still drink it, but you're not going to get that same flavor. That same flavor. Especially ground.

I, you know what? And people can tell you that, you know, coffee, too much coffee, caffeine, yada, yada, yada, yada. There is something that is, I don't know, coffee. I'm still on my quest to find coffee that tastes as good as it smells. Yes. Yours came damn close, I have to tell you. Thank you. And I know it's one of the things that you are obsessed about. We are chatting to Dennis Varden from State 5 Coffee today. Somebody just messaged in here. So let's ask this one. Okay. It goes, "Hi, my name is Robin Blake. I met with a coffee roaster and he told me that once beans have been roasted, they only have a seven day shelf life. Do you agree? I know you are fanatical about your beans, your country of origin, the whole lot." So is that true? So I would like to say that 50% of all statistics are made up on the spot. So depending on which coffee roaster you speak to, I reckon that could change. I disagree completely. I think maybe what the roaster was trying to say and he didn't explain it correctly is that the flavor changes over a period of time. So if you look at a bag, a bag normally has a valve on it and it's called a one way valve. It's a degassing valve. So when we roast our coffee, we let it settle for two days and what that does is it oxidizes.

It takes in oxygen and releases carbon dioxide. So what you then do is you put it in a bag with a one way valve which allows for no oxygen to go back into the bag and all it does is releases carbon dioxide. So in theory, what happens is the coffee deteriorates over a period of time. When you start drinking the Elise and the Levatas and the Italian coffees, I mean they've been on a ship for ages before they get you. It's months, sometimes even years before you're drinking the coffee. The coffee hasn't gone off. It's changed in flavor is the point, which you said earlier is far more pertinent. The minute you grind coffee, it loses flavor very quickly. So as a being beautiful, I would always tell people that love coffee, the first purchase you should make and the smallest purchase is a small hand grinder at home because you grind fresh. That will change your life. You can put it into a plunger, even a fresh roasted coffee, ground with your own little grinder and made with a plunger, which is going to cost you 600 rand in total. It'll give you an unbelievable coffee at home. There's so many different ways to make it. And you don't have to then go and get the big fancy machine for home. I've got one that it stands on my kitchen counter.

It looks absolutely lovely and I can count on one hand the amount of times I've used it purely because it is a schlep, but it doesn't seem to me to be that much of a ritual and the kind of coffee I get out of it isn't brilliant, but I mean grinding my own, turning it into a bit of a ritual, that must be brilliant. Okay, we digress once again. That's why we need to talk again about this and we're going to probably bring you back because there's other bits and pieces I want to talk about because you have been described as a serial entrepreneur and this is the most interesting thing. So you are very, very, very, very steadfast in your kind of beans, what you do local, but you're also, and this really blew me away, you're all about giving back and you do that in a number of ways. So let's talk coffee specifically. How does the coffee giving back thing work? So we, I mean, we met with Brewer the Brave. My challenge on that day, if you remember correctly, was how are we going to communicate that State 5 wants to become a global coffee brand and what is our clear USP? So what's our unique service proposition for our business? And that's, you know, I had a team of far more intelligent people than I that were able to give me some amazing information.

And then there was me as well. So it was Dennis and I and the Kiva people. And essentially it cemented stuff that I'd had in my head for quite a long period of time. So we really want to own the word brave as a brand, you know, and we, our slogan is Brewer the Brave. So we want to celebrate people like the everyday heroes. We busy coming up with a variety of promotions and marketing campaigns where we will be celebrating, you know, the person that goes home early from work to spend time with their children or, you know, the lady that might've changed her entire, if that's the case, or the guy that wakes up at half past four in the morning to go for a run where no one asked us. No, not running. I could put my hand up to the full 30, but not the running, but not where my car works. But I think that is absolutely amazing. It says everyday, as you say, everyday heroes, the unsung heroes. And I've been fortunate to be part of a little bit of the, and see a little bit of the ideas. I mean, and you're going to be able to nominate somebody as your everyday hero. And you know, it could be your mom, it could be somebody at work, or you're going to do something for corporates. It's incredibly exciting.

And I think this is the part where if you are thinking about starting your own business or if you're in business and you're struggling, these are the things, those aha moments, those flashes that suddenly light those fires again, are indescribable. And I think that it's invaluable. I mean, you, when that, we didn't do anything new for you. I mean, it was really in your head, but when a bunch of other people, and some of them very clever people went, oh yeah, okay, you suddenly, I mean, just to see you get fired up and you're so passionate about that. So it's brew of the brave that we're going to be doing a whole bunch of stuff around. Yes. I say we, because I've just lumped myself in as part of the family. Which makes me happy. Sorry for you. And then, but also you give back in other ways. Yes. So we work with the Society for Animals and Distress, which is one of the most beautiful organizations. I mean, not only do they actually look after animals, they'd spay, they essentially offer veterinary services into townships where people cannot afford a service. And on top of that, even more importantly, they teach people about animal care. So last year alone, they trained over 50,000 people in how to look after their animals.

So we've partnered with them and we've created one blend of coffee that is called the philanthropist. Obviously, a philanthropist is someone that gives back. It's beautiful. It tastes like berry and nuts. Literally, it's my favorite coffee. And we donate 50 rand a kilo for every bag that we sell. We donate 50 rand a kilo back to the Society for Animals and Distress. So we're always looking for new coffee shops, new corporates, new restaurants, particularly corporates that want to give back a little bit for them to pay just a little bit extra in coffee and nowhere near as much as our Italian friends that charge us too much, that they would be able to get a local craft coffee that's fresh, but also knowing that they're donating 50 rand a kilo back to the Society. And your bags are what, 500 grand bags, 250 grand? How does it count? One kilo bags or two fifties. For corporates, they normally buy them in one kilos or in little 70 gram sachets that the guys or 80 gram sachets that they use in a pot. I know here at my office, I mean, we would go through, I'm guessing quite easily, five kilos. And that's a very small office. The radio station probably goes through something very similar. So every time I buy a kilo of coffee for you, from you, money goes to animals.

50 rand. 50 rand. Per bag. Of that bag. Yes. So have you ever heard of Conscious Capitalism? I hadn't until we started talking about it. It's a fantastic idea. It's a huge thing for me. I think every business has a duty, and I call it a duty, a duty to give back. We're not here just to make profit. We're not here just to make money. And yes, we do need to do those things. Otherwise, we can't grow a business, we can't pay shareholders, we can't do all the things that are important for a business. But more importantly, I think we need to leave the world a better place than when we came here. We have kids that we need to look after. So Conscious Capitalism essentially says that you are building a business that gives back or leaves the world a better place. So we, and I, I say we because my partners are exactly the same in thinking, and that's one of the reasons I love them. But I very importantly will not get involved in any business that does not make the world a better place. Now, whether that means we're going to plant trees, whether it means we're going to look after animals, whether it means we're going to wash a certain part of the ocean, I don't care what it is. But that business will either donate back to charity or be a business that will actually be clean or fix or do itself.

And in some way give back. I mean, it doesn't have to be money all the time. It can be in terms of services, whatever the case may be, but to give back. I think that's absolutely fantastic. Somebody goes, what are your thoughts on chicory? I'm not a fan. And I know people who love chicory. Yes. I'm not a fan. Yeah. You know, from a flavor point of view, if you roasted, it starts tasting like licorice. I'm also not a huge fan. It's cheap. Most of your instant coffees are made out of chicory because it's quite a simple substitute. We in fact try to put some chicory in our cold brew at one stage, just to test it to see if it could give it like a bit of body and a push. And it gave it too much. It started taking away that beautiful dark chocolate flavor that we had and started making it quite bitter and roasted that we didn't really want. Advice for entrepreneurs, though. I mean, what would you say? Because we were talking, and we were telling the other day, and we were actually with your PR lady, and you and I both were talking about definitions of success. One of them being to keep holding on long after everybody else has let go. I equated it to me being just too dumb to stop. What advice would you give?

I mean, you've been there. I think many entrepreneurs have walked this road. You've had very little, then you've had some, then you've had quite a lot, then you've had absolutely nothing. And so it goes until you get the thing. I believe I'm at that stage now where I've gotten the thing, and it's been some very expensive school fees. I think you're at the stage where you have the things, but everything seems to mesh very nicely. So what is your advice? Jeez. You're talking about something that's very close to my heart, and I'm going to try abbreviate it, but I think if I could pick the fewest things, I'm going to write a book, and it's My Plan of Action, Stubbornness, Stupidity and Perseverance. I think with those three traits, you will be able to get through anything. So literally where other people give up, you carry on. So whether it's business, whether it's ballet, whether it's CrossFit, whether it's drinking tea, I don't care what it is. Are you a CrossFit fan, by the way? Because one of those snarky messages. It's my love. It's my second love. Third, fourth, they're all pretty close, but I think from my point of view, if you carry on when other people give up, there is no ways that you will not eventually succeed.

So you've got to constantly carry on invading. Constantly think about your business. Sometimes pivot. I mean, Lamborghini was a tractor company, BMW was an airplane propeller company, Nokia was a farming company. Are you telling me these companies didn't carry on going when other people, when times got tough, they just carried on going. So I think perseverance, if I would have to get discounts, everything else besides sales, besides ability, besides love, passion. Another thing I say all the time, particularly to my team, is consistency beats passion any day of the week. So everyone tells you how passionate they are. I'm tired of passion. I want to see consistency. I want to see you do the same thing day in and day out for two years, and then you will far beat that, you'll kill the person that's passionate for a week. I do agree with you there. I was about to disagree, but then I thought it through. I do agree with you. Yeah. And it is that, because if you're persistent, and this is what I found out, you then are prepared to learn. And very often that is where it comes in. I refer to the school fees, you know, you're paying your business school fees, having learned. And I mean, who was it, Thomas Edison said that, you know, he hasn't failed, he's only learned 10,000 ways that it doesn't work.

And it's vitally important to have that. And yeah, I've said stupidity. You said, I go, I'm too dumb to give up. You say it's that thing, but I will not. You know what I'm saying? I think that's brilliant. Somebody goes, thanks for a great show. I'm also just too dumb to stop, but thanks for the advice. Keep moving forward. That's just what you have to do in business. That's from Monica. That's from Monica. Somebody else, somebody says, I never win. What? I don't know who you are, so I don't know why you never win, but okay, fine. We're going to get a whole bunch of stuff in. Almost time for us to get up and out of here. You know what we're going to have to do? I'm going to have to give people a teaser of the next product. And then we're going to have to bring you back to talk about that. So the other thing that I saw you wandering around with the other day, and I immediately latched onto it and said, I've got to see this, there's another business that you've got called Scribe.me. Scribe.me. Yes. So is the website up and running? Scribe.me. So S-E-R-Y-B.me. Okay. In a nutshell, before we go, what is it? Meeting planners. Essentially, it's a notebook that makes your meetings more efficient.

It allows you to take more proficient notes during meetings, and thereby make you more effective and save your time. Fantastic stuff. Can I say one last thing quickly? It's a time to which you said the curiosity and perseverance, because you talked about that. Yeah. So I think if you have those two traits, curiosity and perseverance, you'll take over the world. Okay. I just want to say Dennis, you're an absolute inspiration, and I have those three traits. Woo-hoo. Thinking cold brewed coffee served on tap, bottoms up, come spring would be awesome. Lots of love, Megs from tuck and tap. There we go. So there we go. Megs from tuck and tap. Thank you so much. Dennis, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure and a privilege having you on the show. And we're going to have to get you back to talk about Scribe.me. Thank you for your inspiration. I look forward to drinking many a cup of coffee with you and having you back on the show. Much appreciated. Thank you so much. David Watts on Megs 93.8.