Pepe Marais — Entrepreneur, Family Man, Author, Visionary, Modern Day Mystic

Monday nights, I'd just go on seven o'clock, my special guest in studio. Well, this one is a little bit easier than trying to figure out what Benji does for a living. Peppy Marie, he is, wow, what, you know, advertising man, author, family man,

you've just, you surprised me. And the book surprised me. And I tell you why, because I first heard about growing greatness, I was like, that sounds great, it sounds fantastic, nice book, Peppy Marie, no idea who the dude is, but okay. And then the ad sort of connection became apparent to me, I was like, oh no, it's gonna be another advertising person. And you're not, you're none of those things. And you don't seem to fit in the mold. Is this a conscious thing?

- Sure, I would say it is a conscious thing.

- I just dropped you in it right there. - Yeah, that's good, nice drop, thanks for the opportunity. But I think, I'll put them as a normal admin up to about 13 years ago, you know, sex, drugs, rock and roll. I mean, the ad industry is hard working, but hard playing as well. - Yes, very hard playing. - Very hard playing. And I got to a point in my life where I felt I was not adding the value that I can add. So I do think it's a conscious decision. It was a conscious decision to, and I love advertising. I think it's a powerful industry and it's got a lot of stretch. It's got a lot of value to add. It doesn't add as much as it can, but it's got a lot more stretch and I'm throwing myself at it. - Let's take you on a journey because the first thing that I said, and we chatted off here just now, I said to, you know, Pepe Marais, you know, and like kind of, you sort of initially think of Spanish, Mexican origin, and then a real Afrikaans surname like Marais. Tell us a bit about young Pepe and your life. So how did you get to where we are today? Let's take that journey. And you know, we're gonna follow very loosely what happened in the book as well. - So born into Afrikaans home. So my birth name is Andre Pepler, Marais.

It's kind of French, but yes, Afrikaans.

And my older sister was three years old when I was born and she couldn't pronounce the Pepler. So she called me Andre Pepe, and very quickly the Pepe stuck, and that became my name from birth, except for my grandparents who called me by my birth name, Andre Pepler, but the rest. So that became my natural name and it's interesting because as I moved into advertising, I married an English woman, so I'm still Afrikaans as my first language, but I speak more English. But Pepe's also in people. So if you look at the word, people in it, and I think that's part of my purpose is very people-centric. But yeah, the early days were rough, especially the first 14, alcoholic father and pretty abusive, a love for guns, all the things that go with that.

But very grateful for the fact that it forced me to start working at the age of 11. And my own son just did his first little entrepreneurial gig on Friday and he's 11. So it seems, yeah, maybe he's picking up his dad as an example, or maybe it's just sort of part of who he's gonna be, I don't know yet, but I'm not forcing him, but it's interesting. So I started working at 11, pretty much seven days a week, and I think that planted entrepreneurial seed and also became, in my DNA, to work really hard. Quite an Afrikaans thing as well, have to work hard. But I also, I believe in, look, if you're passionate about what you do, the hard work comes naturally. - But I mean, you didn't start off in the ad business. - No. - There's a story about you meeting a Flossie somewhere. - I was gonna become an engineer, civil engineer, and I see it in the township schools now. I work with township schools. I've done so for the past 13 years. And all the kids want to be doctors, lawyers, engineers. That's like the top three, doctor, lawyer, engineer, 'cause everyone wants to make money. I wanted to become an engineer to make money. I had no passion for it, it was just you make money. Friend of mine's dad was an engineer, and that's what I wanted to become.

And completely by, I don't know what you call a chance, like fate, met a guy who was a graphic artist on the board of the then Southwest African Angola. - Were you doing military service then? - I was doing two years of military service. - So we sort of must be very close in age there if you also did two years of military service. - I was the last intact leader two years, 1987 and '88. - Okay, I was just before you. - Yeah. - Yeah, okay. - And I was one of the last, probably 30 people to leave Angola from the front, putting back, just bringing back the back end of it. It was amazing as an experience. I never saw war, I was in the support services, but I saw the guys who saw war, it was pretty intense. - That was horrific. - Shocking. - We always used to say that there were two kinds of war that was being fought at that time, which was the border war, and then the township ones. And I'd spent a lot of time in townships, and I saw those guys coming back from the border in there, and I was like, "No way, could I?" And yet, some of them that got transferred from the border into the township scene just couldn't handle it. It was just, but it was a brutal, brutal time. - I did three months in the townships.

That was my officer's course. It was horrific, the things we saw. - Yeah. - Horrific. And yeah, but that's life and all the conditionings and the preconditionings, and I'm just very grateful that I've grown through it, you know? We don't realize that these, you know, the deeper, they say the deeper the route into the darkness, the more the growth above the ground, so. - Yeah, absolutely. - It's one of those things. - Okay, so then you were there, you met this graphic artist. - I mean, what's he doing on the border with Portfolio? I mean, it sounds like the good tippy truth, but that's, I didn't even know what it was. He showed me his work, and somehow, I just knew it's what I wanted to do. I didn't know if I had a talent for it. I just somehow knew that's what I wanted to do. - So, skip forward a little bit. You came back, finished your national service, then what? - Studied for three years at an art school, and interestingly, for the first time in my life, found something I was really good at, which was massive for my self-esteem, 'cause at school, I was super insecure because I wasn't good at sport, I wasn't good at school. I wanted to leave school at the age of 14 and just make money delivering newspapers.

But my mother was a teacher, and she wanted me to make the trick. I found no value in school and in the system. Zero, nothing at all. But I finished it, but I wasn't good at it, so it pretty much did a good job in destroying my, not destroying, but pretty much depleting my self-esteem, being measured and being graded against other people. I was good at maths, but I found my own way to get the right answers, and that was also not often seen as right. So, it's just an interesting, that's why I'm so passionate about education, 'cause as a system, there's something seriously wrong with it. - I would agree with you, I would agree with you. So, you studied, and I'm going to try because, I think you got too creative sitting across a table for it. This conversation could go anywhere, so I'm gonna try and keep it on track. So, then you started, what, you finished studying, and did you immediately start your own business there? - No, so I finished top of my class since year one. I was leagues ahead, and I don't say that with arrogance, it was just the fact that I was so passionate and so good at this thing called graphic design at an art school. And I pretty much just top of my class three years in a row, and I went for a job interview the very next day after graduating, 'cause I had to pay my debt.

Student loan, I paid for myself.

I said it lightly, my mother, I was staying with my mother, so she paid for everything else, like food and accommodation, but I paid for my studies. And I found a job, my second interview, they employed me on the spot because of the strength of my portfolio, and I started as a junior artist at an agency that back then, the JMB, the butterfly ad, and I worked on Smirnoff, and I did pretty groundbreaking work for the early '90s. But I knew at art school, I pretty much had my first vision for my life at art school, I knew I was gonna have my own business by 30. So I thought, well, I'll finish, get some experience, but 30 was my cutoff day to have my own business. So I always knew I was gonna have my own business from the moment I discovered art. And I did a stint in Johannesburg at one of the top agencies for two and a half, three years, and then at the age of 29, the time came to start my own business. - Okay, and you started that with a partner at that time? - I started it, it was interesting. I was gonna start it, and I had a copywriter, Noel, that really wanted to join me on this endeavor, and together we cracked this idea called takeaway advertising, and then I knew I needed a business partner because I'm a creative guy, which is interesting that we think as creatives is we're not business minded, 'cause we are, but we sort of-- - Just differently business minded.

- I don't know, it's a conundrum in our industry where we call the creative guy and the business guy, but actually creativity is the business.

And my business partner to this day, 21 years later, in the first meeting we had at Bardelia in Cape Town, it came out that the guy saved my life. So it was profound. I mean, never met him in my life, and he tells me the story about a guy whose life he saved drowning three years before, and I realized that was me, 'cause I never knew this was human intervention. - Wow. - And that's why we started the business together because we just thought, well, that's like serendipitous. - Yeah, I was often told one of my great mentors always said, serendipity is God's way of remaining anonymous. We're chatting to Pepe Marais, and we'll get onto his book, Growing Greatness. We'll be back in just a bit. It is what's involved. Mix 93.8, it's an absolute pleasure to have you along with us tonight. My special guest in studio, Pepe Marais, and we're chatting to him about his life, about business. I mean, it's fascinating, and the book is absolutely brilliant.

I think, and I don't think I'm gonna be mistaken in saying this if it hasn't done it already. This is a book that will quite literally change lives. And it's, yes, it is full of insight, it's full of wisdom, but I think it's the way that you've written it, because you literally lay it out on the table. This is my life. This is where I was. This is what happened. And we were chatting. We always make this joke amongst us radio people. Some of the most interesting conversations happen, or fair. But we were chatting during the break about those days and what happened, and how you do, you sort of, and you said it yourself, that you tend to overshare. I've been accused of that as well. It's just that there's so many voices in my head that are all fighting and they wanna get out. So I've just got it, blah, everything comes out. Are you the same way there? - I used to drink a lot of tequila. So I don't drink at all. I haven't drank a drop for 13 years now. - I love tequila. - I stopped overnight. I used to drink lots of tequila. And then I used to call it truth serum 'cause the truth would always come out. So I thought when I stopped drinking tequila, I'll stop oversharing, but I didn't. (laughing) It seemed it's not the tequila.

It's in my DNA to just overshare. But I did it also with purpose. I wanted to put it out there because I think we all tend to carry this mask. - Yeah, we were talking about that. The masks that we wear, the facade that we carry. - Big facade, mine was massive. Long hair, bells in my toes, like complete arty guy, life of the party. But inside I was pretty much empty and I just didn't feel I was adding true value. - 'Cause you said it was what was about 13 years ago that you kind of went, okay, this far and no further. And what led you to that though? - A multiple of things. I'm in a long-term relationship with my wife. We 34 years together now this year. And back then our relationship was falling apart. So that's probably one of the most critical things that my relationship sort of falling apart. The business pretty much tanked. It didn't belong to me anymore. We sold it off and it was struggling. And we lost half our business overnight. So suddenly I was defined by materialistic aspects of the world and my business was defining me that was failing. Financial was failing. My health was failing. So everything came down crashing. And it's actually a pity that it takes that amount of trauma.

But I mean, I suppose I look at nature now, you know, when there's a felt fire. That's when you need to get new growth. So I suppose that's kind of natural that you need that sort of destruction to a massive change in life, but it's a pity. - It is. I was about to say that. Change without having to experience that. 'Cause if I can give you the magic tablet to change tomorrow, because this thing about consciousness and greater purpose and more meaningful life, it's fascinating as a journey. - Yeah, but having said that, I've never, in my experience, come across anybody who's gone, yeah, you know what, I decided to be more conscious and, you know, life is great. And I just decided that every single time there is a story and every single time there is a journey. And oftentimes, even in some of the old writings, referred to as the hero's journey, you've got to kind of hit rock bottom. And I remember I actually made a post the one day a good couple of years ago on Facebook. And I was sitting there in absolute despair. And I said, you know, rock bottom is never where you think it is. 'Cause when you kind of, you think you're there, ah, nobody, uh-uh, you know, that's not where it can get to.

And it takes a long time. And sometimes you think, is this struggle worth it? And then you look back and you go, ah, yeah, hell yes. Because that me was not a me I was proud of. It was not a me that I loved. And I think that's also an important part of the journey, is being able to look at yourself in the mirror and go, yeah, dude, you're okay. - I think that that me, someone asked me the other day, did you just change a new person? I said, no, I actually went back to who I really am. 'Cause I think that's the journeys towards self discovery. And we spend all our time pointing fingers at everything that's wrong around us, but we never look at ourselves. You know, we never introspect. And my experience is all that happened is I discovered the real person that I was born to be. 'Cause you get conditioned out of it. Racist time, racist. - Yeah. - You know, like, and if you don't watch yourself, I mean, I spent time this weekend with people who are still in that conditioning. - Yeah. - And I don't blame them, but it's so limiting to watch how people can still be in that conditioning and 30 years later. - But a lot of this is still fair, you know? And I think a lot of in this country, we still experience a lot of fear, all of us.

And it's across the board, across the spectrum. - Sure, okay, you see, we're digressing again. - You see, we're digressed. - We're getting into fascinating stuff. - But fear, just quickly on fear, you mentioned fear. Yes, everything's driven by fear. And I think fear is there in the absence of a greater purpose. - Yeah. - Because there's nothing that's giving you a rada in your life. You're pretty much living from weekend to weekend, you know? So it's a fascinating, I don't know if it's a methodology. It's my belief. It's almost my religion now. - Hmm. - Yeah, sorry, I got lost in living weekend to weekend 'cause I used to live Monday to Wednesday 'cause Wednesday was sort of midweek break kind of thing. And then the partying which starts on a Wednesday and then it would end generally on a Sunday afternoon. - I am so aligned to that. - Yeah. - I started on Thursdays. - Yeah. - And when I cut booze out of my life and I'm writing my second book now, so it will be in it, I put 48 active hours onto my week. - Yeah? - So I'm not living two months every month. - Purely because of-- - Purely because of just cutting alcohol out and just maximizing my life because of that. So it's a really, and then the other thing is this weekend, I was living weekend to weekend like a stuck record, like repeating the exact same picture the next weekend.

And once I changed my life, I wrote a 25 year plan and I'm living towards that 25 years towards 2032 and everything's happening, so. - Geez, that is impressive. Talking to Pepe Marais, my special guest in studio, business owner, father, entrepreneur, can I call you a social activist? - Yes, I think I am. - I think you are. - Yeah, I also, I do, I have a non-profit organization, I work with hardship schools and I'm super passionate about education and making South Africa great. - Did you pick up on my conversation with Benji as I was leaving about how, and I do, you know, I got, the other day I got so, 'cause you know, the whole hashtag I'm staying, it's like, why, okay, it's nice, yeah, hashtag I'm staying, that's nice. What are you actually doing? 'Cause that's my opinion, you know, it's all good to go, yeah, and we can post fluffy stuff on social media, what are you doing? You know, I love this country. Isn't it a mess? Oh hell yes. Is it gonna help if I leave or you leave or, no. You know what, we need to sit down and we need to realize we're all people and get it going, I'm digressing again. Pepe, talk to me about Joe Public, because in my mind, Joe Public was, there wasn't a Joe Public and then suddenly Joe Public was everywhere and it's not a sudden thing, but talk to me about that.

- There's a beautiful saying, apparently by one of the first entrepreneurs in the world, I can't remember his name, he said it takes 17 years to become an overnight success. - I don't disagree. - So Joe Public's been around for 21 years, started in 1998 as takeaway advertising. So we wanted to revolutionize advertising by turning it into a restaurant model. So rare, medium and well-done ideas, and then on execution, rare, medium and well-done execution on a price point, on a menu, in a little diner in Cape Town. And it really disrupted the market and was a springboard for almost like instant success, which we then sold three years later to American enterprise, New York listed entity to expand and we opened in New York City and then 9/11 happened, that failed and we were suddenly working for Americans for eight years of our careers. So for eight years, we were owned 100%. And it was not a pleasant experience, but an experience that I was meant to go through with my business partner. And because we realized once we bought the business back in 2009, that we will never sell it to international company again. So that likely because you never know what comes in the future. But we've been offered, we've been approached for the last five years often.

And we just, we say no. So we proudly South African, 100% South African owned by ourselves and we are the largest independent ad agency in South Africa and we currently ranked number one for the second year running in our industry, which is no small feat because the Goliath in the industry is pretty much three to four times our size. So to compete at the top end, and of course, by the grace of our people and our clients. So it's not us being geniuses, it's because we've got incredible people who work for us, who are committed to us. And also we've got incredible clients that entrust us with their business. So just to make sure I mentioned that, because building a business is never just a one man show. - No, absolutely. And I mean, but you guys, and you say this fairly likely, but I mean, you've won some amazing awards. You really have. - Yeah, I'm super proud. I think there was a period where it was also bottom line driven because of belonging to a New York listed entity. Everything was about the bottom line. And which is the world that I observed today in the corporations, everything is bottom line driven. Even the country is talking about GDP and GDP growth and it's like obsession.

- Well, you don't make the numbers by focusing on the numbers. You make the numbers by focusing on what you produce and making sure that your service is excellent. It's pretty much like a restaurant and that should apply to a country as well. I think there's too much focus on numbers and talk and not enough action making sure that your product is exceptional and your service is exceptional. Yeah, and also our business is purpose-based for the past decade. And that's made a fundamental difference too. - This is the thing that I find so fascinating though, because often you'll hear people talking about the purpose-driven life, purpose-driven business. And you're like, yeah, okay, and yet you've done this and you've decided that it's going to be purpose-driven. And I mean, if anything, you guys have gotten better. What do you think, why? Why is that? - We've gotten better and we are going to get a lot more better and we're about going towards 300 people now. The top end of our industry is about 700 people. I think we're going to get there in the next three to five years, but not because we're chasing to be bigger or to make bigger turnover because we are chasing to become better every single day.

But I think the purpose is a very interesting question. I mean, I've asked once before, I've asked the board of directors of a 12 billion rand business. There were 11 of them and I asked them, what does this business stand for in one word? I asked them each to write down what the word was and I got 11 different answers. Now, if you don't have clarity at your executive level, how can you expect your two and a half thousand people to know why they come to work? So to me, purpose is just the ultimate strategy for business, it's your Uber strategy, which attracts your people, which defines your values, which defines your vision. Without a purpose, you can't have a vision. I'm studying business now. Business at an MBA level teaches that vision comes first and I completely disagree with it. Purpose comes first, it radically influence your vision. And when you build your whole business on that approach, which changes your systems, the people that you attract, your processes, your PR, your product, every single thing changes and then the byproduct of all that change is a magnificent bottom line, which is at the bottom of a long, long list. And that's what I'm advocating through my book as well, is a new approach to business, which I believe is a better approach, which is becoming a global standard, albeit on a very small percentage of businesses, but there's evidence not globally that this is the way.

- There is talk of something and when you talk purpose, would you say that this is where, what part of the purpose thing is, is there's this drive and I say drive, it's not big at the moment towards conscious capitalism. - 100%. - And that is the basis of a purpose-driven life, purpose-driven business. What is Joe Publix's purpose? - Joe Publix, so I just wanna take one step back, just address what you said, conscious capitalism, 'cause capitalistic system is still the best system that's served the world the most, although it's been abused. So the consciousness of capitalism is to be conscious with what you do within that system and how you actually make sure that your business serves more than just the shareholders, it actually serves all stakeholders. And the leading companies globally are more purpose-driven. Our approach to purpose is that it is defined by one word because that's how you get traction in the business that people actually start understanding it, that's how you sink it into people. So our one word for Joe Publix is growth and people will go, well, that's very obvious as a business, you wanna grow, but it's not. I've run many of these workshops and every time it's a different word for different businesses, but the definition of the word is actually the true purpose.

So our business exists to be the fertile soil that grows, our people, our clients, and our country. Those are our three strategic pillars in our business. We grow our people, the better our people, the better our product. That serves our clients growth as best of our ability as a advertiser, as a marketing assistant or arm to our clients' businesses. And that money builds our business and we can deploy that money into our township schools and we can create more jobs. And that's how we assist to grow our country. And hopefully in time, we might be able to get a shot at top government defined purpose of our country. And then I think we will be in business as a country. - I don't think that's an unreasonable goal at all. - No, I think it's achievable. - I think it's very, very achievable. But you know, we talk about business like this and people and everything. If you had said 10, 13 years ago, if you'd said, this is what I'm doing, and you'd announced it as we're talking now, they would have given you a very nice comfortable sell with these like really soft squishy walls and a jacket that buckles at the back because they would have gotten you nuts. You're going to kill your business. But let's be honest, at that stage you were killing yourself.

- No, it's a fundamental shift. And I think the subtlety is, you know, everyone knows the cliche, the more you give, the more you get. But of course you need to give without wanting to get. And I think the greater system sort of will catch you out if you're giving to get. But it's a very subtle. Pre 2007, I was in business to enrich myself and I was making no money. Post 2007, I was in service of every single person around me, whether they work for me, whether my clients, whether they entrepreneurs who I can assist or offer guidance to or whatever, everything I do is aligned to my personal purpose and in service of others, and it seems for me, that's worked much better than the 38 years before I changed my life. - How did the rest of the business take this? I mean, your partner as well, did they kind of look at you and go, he's lost it, you know? This is what happens to people in the ad industry. Or did they buy in? I mean, obviously by now they've bought in. - So my founding business partner, Gareth Leck, and my wife are the only two people who just didn't even blink, just said, cool. The rest, a lot of people questioned it. So those are the only two people, even my own family probably thought I'd join some form of a cot.

But they were the only two people who didn't question me and Gareth completely trusted me as I trusted him with my life since he saved mine. And he allowed me to bring this methodology into the work space. And this is what we're driving, and we don't get it right every day. And we're not absolutely on purpose every day, but when we lose our way, we know which way to course correct towards. So it's ultimately strategy. - Fantastic. We are chatting to my special guest, Peppe Marais, author of "Growing Greatness". We're chatting about his business, about his life. My special guest in studio with me, Peppe Marais. You've done amazing stuff. I mean, there's not just Joe Public. I mean, we've talked about Joe, but there's many different aspects of Joe Public as well. And they're all doing well. You're not just in South Africa? Or, yes? - We, yeah, so we've got five businesses in our group in South Africa. And we've got an agency, which it's an interesting one. We started an anti-franchise franchise. So a franchise that doesn't subscribe to franchise rules. So we've got a Joe Public in Amsterdam. It's my best friend's agency. And based on our anti-franchise franchise philosophy, we only charge them a license fee.

But same brand. And they run the take away advertising model out of Amsterdam and it's cooking. It's doing amazingly well. They're also in their market number one at the moment. So it's great for both on two sides of the African continent to have two Joe Publics that are both number one. - Now talking about African continent, planes to go up into Africa? - We have. We had affiliates and we actually had two, three Joe Publics. One in Zimbabwe, one in Kenya and one in Namibia. And none of them worked out. So we've put that on hold. We're waiting for a substantial client who wants to get into Africa 'cause that's what we'll need to carry the expansion. But we're focusing on the local market. There's too much to get right for us. - When you say that, how is the local market for you? Because whenever you have a problem with the economy or people are moaning about the economy, the first thing to go is advertising and marketing, which is, in my opinion, kind of silly. How's things been for you and how were they looking? - So I suppose it is kind of silly 'cause the rule says you shouldn't. But I suppose if you have to choose between people's jobs or your advertising budget, you'd rather cut the budget than cut the jobs.

So I get it. It's super tough. The market is flat. And we just believe, when things are this tough, all you need to do is give 10 rand for every rand. You just need to give more. And hence we just push and focus on giving our clients the best that we can, which is not always good enough to do what's needed to be done. But that's, I think, what's keeping us thriving in business 'cause we're not just surviving. We're doing well. But it's because we really, we make mistakes, but we make up for it and we endeavor every day to do better. And I think our clients know that when we stuff it up, the intention was there to do well. - Okay, listen, we've got a book to give away. How would you like to win the book? All you gotta do is SMS your name and what are we gonna do? What is the name of Pippi's book? SMS your name and the name of the book. 241348 SMS is charged 150. Otherwise WhatsApp is 084-822-0938. I'm gonna randomly pick a winner. We'll let you know. If I don't get to picking a winner before we say cheers and sign off, I will ask Pete and Dean from the Music Time Machine. They're up next. I'll ask them to use technology and let me know. They've got a great night organized tonight. What are we going back to?

81. - 81. - 81, it's gonna be fantastic. Something to do on my drive home. So there we go. If you do, it's, when that book, your name and the name of the book, Pippi's book, Growing Greatness, let us know. 41348 WhatsApp is 084-822-0938. And then we'll make sure that we get your name and details and somebody will be on the line to deliver that book to you. Pippi, you mentioned the second book. When can we expect that? If I know Tracy, she's already put you on a deadline. - She's already put me on a deadline. - I was in my sick bed a few months ago. That heavy flu that hit all of us, a lot of us. And I was also, I'm studying. So you've done your MBA. So, I mean, it's not easy. And running a business and then a demanding climate. And then I had this idea for a book. So it's launching on the 10th of the 10th of 2020. And it's also Growing Greatness, but it's 20 Habits to Break Habits. So I'm writing a book on Breaking Bad Habits. - Okay. Well, we're gonna have to insist to have you back. If not before then, then certainly then. - We'll have to wait until often. It'll be a good reason to come back. - Yeah, there's always a reason. Always a reason to come back. The book is available. Is there an online edition?

- There is. I think it's on Kindle, on Amazon, yeah. - It's perfect. - That's the only place you're gonna get it at the moment because we're in reprint. So I don't know how many exclusives have got it. - Okay, so I'm giving you a hard copy of the book that we've given away and it's signed. I'm actually gonna ask the guys just to choose a winner and let me know. Would you mind, Doug? Thank you so much. Okay, in conclusion, way too from here for Pepe-Marie. - Way too from here. So our first objective, we are in the process and hopefully we pull this off. We're very pro transformation. So we would like to build the largest independent black-owned or majority black-owned business in our industry. We think there's a huge gap for proper transformed entities, especially at board level, which we don't see enough of in this country. So that's the next step, then double the business. And then once we get there, we'll see where to from there. - Well, I have a message for you from somebody that I'm fairly sure you know. And the message comes from Lisa Illingworth. And she says, "Anytime you're ready to give up Joe Public, you're more than welcome to come and work for her." - I know, Lisa. I'm gonna get there, Lisa.

You know I'm going to. So that's my long-term vision is to get into education. So my time will come. - I think that's it. She does fantastic stuff. I had it in a couple of weeks ago. And you know what? And I'm sure you had the same sort of, the response is like, "What can I do? I wanna join, how, how, where?" So I understand that. Pibby, thank you so much for coming in and telling to us. We wish you all the best with the book. It's already a best sell. I mean, let's be honest here. Somebody's gonna win a copy of that. And I'll catch you again next Monday.