Jonathan Lun — Turning Rocks Into Rocket Fuel

- Once again, it is another edition of "What's Involved?" And on this one, we're going out of this world, or we're figuring out how to go out of this world. What on earth am I talking about? I've got the most fascinating guest that I'd like to introduce you to. He is the founder of HyperNova Space Technologies, and he is Jonathan Lund. Hello, Jonathan. - Hi, David, how are you? - I'm well, thank you. I'm sitting here thinking, it's almost like I'm talking to a rocket scientist now. So before we get into what HyperNova does and your journey there, tell me a little bit about Jonathan and what led you to decide that you wanted to do this?

- Sure, David. Yes, I grew up in Joburg. I was born and raised in the eastern part of Kensington. Great neighborhood. And yeah, I've always wanted to be an engineer and design and invent things and got exposed to when you watch things happening at NASA and astronauts and rockets and that sort of thing. And that really inspired me to want to pursue it and say, yeah, maybe I can also do the same thing, even though I'm far away from all of that activity, and you never know what might happen. Yeah, and then over the years I got to see the likes of Mark Shuttleworth and Elon Musk doing stuff in space. And I thought, well, okay, maybe South Africans can really be involved in that. And then I was very fortunate to get involved with some satellite program at Stellenbosch University in postgraduate studies and yeah, studied engineering and then had a chance to actually do a project around how to move satellites around in space. And then ended up doing quite a lot of research in what is ultimately a hyper-nervous core technology today, which is to actually push satellites around in space using a really novel means of propulsion that's quite different from everything else today. - Now, you say this and it sounds so easy, but so you've qualified now as a what engineer?

- Sure, so I did a PhD in mechanical engineering at WITZ and also studied at Stellenbosch. So not really a rocket scientist in a way. But yeah, I think it certainly got me on the path to being curious and to getting in touch with people who know more about these things. - So now, was the idea always there for the company or did you go out and work with other places? Did you have other jobs before hyper-nervous? - Oh yeah, sure. I did work in the space industry for a number of years. I actually worked for the South African Space Agency and then for Space Tech, which was a government program to build satellites. And then I also spent some time at a space startup in Stellenbosch, it's quite interesting to see how it was just over the last five years, a lot of commercial and private companies, particularly in the Western Cape, have actually built up to cater to the international space industry. So yeah, with that knowledge, with the experience,

I knew I'd wanted to start something for a while, but I didn't really know how to. And I think it just took a while and maybe needed a bit of courage to finally take the jump. - Yeah, first off, and I think it took immense courage, but the concept of South Africa and then South Africa having a space program just boggles the mind a little bit because in general, South Africa can't get a lot of things right. How are we doing on the space front then?

- Sure, so I think one of the biggest challenges is really having people understand the connection that we have with space. Most people assume space to be associated with very wealthy people going on joyrides and not really making the connection that space is actually already playing quite an integral part in the way we do life and in the economy, things like GPS, weather prediction, and the way we track assets and resources for the insurance company or for logistics, things like monitoring water and other resources. We really do that with satellites. So it's really about making people aware of the fact that these are already out there, that those tools and those resources. And yeah, in the last couple of years, I think the space industry as a whole has really undergone quite a lot of commercial activity. Obviously spearheaded by very high profile companies and people, but I think that has a ripple effect across everybody. And so yeah, a lot of the people who started South African space companies, I think were, yeah, partly as a result of that overall trend that's happening globally. So there's probably about a dozen space companies right now in South Africa, whether it's building space hardware or processing and analyzing and selling imagery of the earth, building radios and being ground stations to capture and receive satellite signals.

So I think it is growing quite organically, but yeah, there's always opportunity to do more. - Now, in terms of this do more, because I've just had a chat to McMahon from Singularity U, South Africa, and apparently you're gonna be on one of the panels in the upcoming summit in October, but you have more of a connection with them, don't you? Talk to me about that, 'cause is that not the bit that led you to where you are now? - Sure, Singularity did play quite a big role in where I am today. I had a chance to go to the Global Solutions Program at the time, which was in 2017. Yeah, I won a competition to go and get sponsorship to travel there and spend three months at NASA and Silicon Valley with 90 other people and get to be exposed to all these new ideas to the people and to the connections there and really expand my horizon, expand my view of the world and what could be in the future. And yeah, how we can be empowered to actually be part of that change to make things better. So in fact, that's ultimately where I met one of my co-founders, and he's actually Canadian. And yeah, he and I started up Hypenova and then about 18 months ago, actually just as COVID hit, which was really great timing, we started going full-time.

So I've been working full-time on Hypenova, yeah, just in the last 18 months, and it's been quite a ride. - Yeah, like I said, we do pick the best times to start some of these things, don't we? So Hypenova is based just in South Africa or you sort of got the South African branch and the Canadian branch. - So right now we're just set up in South Africa. We would like to start branching out overseas simply because the space industry is global and we'd like to be close to where our customers are and where most of the opportunities are. So I think it's still good for us to set up here in the sense that we could do quite a lot with what we already had and take advantage or make the most of the skillset and the abilities that we have here in South Africa. - Wonderful stuff. My special guest is Jonathan Lund, one of the founders of Hypenova Technology. This is what's involved. We'll be back with you in just a bit and finding out what Hypenova Technologies actually does. As I said, back in a bit. And we're back. What's involved that is? And my special guest, Jonathan Lund, one of the founders of Hypenova Space Technologies. So Jonathan, what is Hypenova Space Technologies all about? 'Cause I heard a mention and maybe I misheard it, which is possible that you turned rocks into rocket fuel.

- Sure, yeah, that's quite a great tagline. So essentially what we're doing is with rockets, they're all using some really combustible liquid gas fuel that's either very expensive or very toxic or can be stored under pressure and that can be quite dangerous. Particularly, yeah, when you see rockets exploding, it's really not a good thing. So the same processes happen with satellites as well. They need to push themselves and maneuver themselves around in space. So they have their own little rocket engines, some of them at least. But it's still quite a complex thing. There's always the danger that something could leak or explode. And so the technology that I worked on was to completely change that around and say, what is the most cheap and abandoned thing that we could use as fuel? And if you also wanna think about if we're gonna travel out beyond Earth and settle on the moon and Mars and other planets, we need to be able to actually use the resources that we have around us, not just take everything from Earth and have to transport it. That's just not sustainable. So essentially what the technology I worked on is to take any metal that can be found in rocks, ordinary stuff like aluminum and iron and copper and stuff that can even be found on the moon and on asteroids and actually use it as a fuel source.

So what we've done is developed prototypes and developed hardware that can actually consume raw metal

and actually creates a thrust from that. So yeah, we're selling that now as one of our first products. And we've gotten to the point where we're gonna do a flight demonstration mission in space on a real satellite sometime in March next year. - Okay, now let's just talk a bit about satellites because I've got a very limited understanding of it. I mean, as far as I know, you get a rocket and somebody has a rocket, you pay them to put your little satellite on the blast off into space, ejects the satellites and they just spin around there in orbit all the time. So now there's this principle of geostationary orbits as well. So surely once it's up there, you don't really need to move it or do you? - Yeah, so when you have your satellites floating around and orbiting the Earth, there are different orbits. Some are very low with orbit and you talked about geostationary. So that orbit is large enough that the satellite goes around the Earth at the same rate that the Earth rotates. So it looks like from the Earth's point of view, it looks like the satellite stationary. So those are very interesting uses because it's useful for telecoms or for other communications because the satellites looks like it's in a fixed point in the sky.

If you think of orbits as like highways, so certain orbits have very useful applications that are ideal for satellites to orbit and maybe take pictures of the Earth at the same time of day so that you can get consistent data. But what happens is there's all sorts of disturbances in space. Maybe the sun pressure creates more particles or maybe the Earth's magnetic field shifts a little bit and your satellites over time, the orbit doesn't stay the same. It kind of drifts or it decays or might even start having a collision course with a piece of space junk. And you need propulsion in order to make sure your satellite can get out the way or to adjust its orbits. So yeah, think about it as orbits in space being like highways and satellites are these cars that are driving along the highways. So sure, they can travel along but if you've got no steering wheel, you can't really change lanes or stop colliding with another satellite and that's a big problem. So that's where propulsion comes in. - All right, sorry. I got totally distracted a second ago there when you were talking about the sort of fuel that you can burn and I suddenly had this vision of people going mining fuel and on the moon and all sorts of things like that.

The potential for this, as I understand it though, is huge. And I mean, it's quite revolutionary and the fact that you guys figured this out I think is absolutely phenomenal. You mentioned just quite quietly that you're gonna be doing a test next year but talk me through because I had a look on your website and normally I always joke with my guests and say that I stalk them a little bit before I chat to them just so I can find out more. Your website gives information but it just makes me wanna know more. - Yeah, I suppose it's kind of like a teaser. - Yeah, I mean, you know. So talk to me about this product of yours. Is it an engine and how does it turn metal into a way to make things go? - Sure. So we started off with something that we thought, well, we want it to be as simple as possible in the sense that we don't want the user having to buy a device that they need a huge instruction manual for and they have to look after it very carefully and they have to have all sorts of logistics headaches that they experience with other systems. So the beauty of the technology is that it's pretty much largely electronic, solid state. So there's no very little moving parts. There's no liquids or gases.

And the idea is it's almost like a plug and play system. The unit is pretty small, it can fit in your hand and half of it is the electronics to power it and the other half is the actual engine. And the way that it creates thrust from the metal is it works pretty much like the spark plug in your car. So if you imagine it creates these sparks and the metal actually vaporizes during those arcing events and that it's enough energy to actually vaporize and turn the metal into this very high energetic plasma. So yeah, it works. I think that's the easiest description I can think of. So think of it as spark plugs in space. - I need to find out more when we come back. We're chatting to my special guest, Jonathan Lin who is one of the founders of HyperNova Space Technologies. I'm a bit of a space freak. So my mind is boggling at the moment. More from our special guest, Jonathan, when we come back this is what's involved.

And we're back with Jonathan Lin who is our special guest, one of the founders of HyperNova Space Technologies. Now, when you mentioned Jonathan initially that this is a small unit can fit into your hand, I thought, no, no, no, that's not what I saw when these guys were building the Death Star and things like that. You need some serious power. But then there was another part of my brain that says, but hang on, there's not a lot of friction up there. So is that why they don't have to be massive to move them?

- Yeah, that's exactly right. There's no drag or very little drag in space. And hence you don't need a lot of force to actually push the satellite around. So what's interesting about the technology is that we wanted to start small in order to be able to demonstrate it. And also the fact that a lot of satellites are quite small in size at the stage. Traditionally satellites have been maybe the size of a bus and now they've turned into something that's about the size of a briefcase. And so we wanted to cater to that market. And yeah, that's why we've started small. But there's no inherent limit to how large a system we can make. It's really just limited by how much power you have available on your satellite to actually create that thrust. So we can scale it for these small satellites, but then our long-term goal is to start building it for much more larger, ambitious craft that can actually do very large scale activities in space. - Just not more space tourism. I think the competition is rough at the moment. I'm just wondering how many of these guys are offering return tickets, but that's another question entirely. But Jonathan, my mind is blown as I speak to you. So this is this little thing that you can fit on that can move satellites in space.

How long does it last? Because you mentioned something and we've seen, all of us have seen pictures of rockets exploding spectacularly and the satellites falling out of orbit and burning up on reentry, et cetera, et cetera. And from what I understand, from what you're saying with your system, there's less chance of it blowing up. - Well, in fact, there's no chance of it blowing up because there's nothing explosive on it. If something were to fail, we would simply just stop working like any old electronic component. So inherently it's fail safe, but at the same time, it's available for you whenever you need it. So if you turn it off, it's completely benign. Yeah, so. - Okay, now how long roughly, how long can one of your, is it an engine? Can we call it an engine or a thruster? Thruster sounds much more like one of two. How long does that last? - So our demonstration mission that's going up next year is gonna perform several maneuvers and in total probably gonna operate for at least maybe a dozen hours long continuously.

But ultimately we'd like to have it last for maybe tens if not hundreds of hours. So essentially what happens is you're limited by the amount of fuel that you have 'cause it gets consumed very slowly. So we've only put a small amount of metal on board just to demonstrate the system and show that we've got some ability to actually make it work. So yeah, following from that, yeah, larger and more bigger systems will contain more and more fuel. - I'm just amazed that there is in that part of the research I've done, there's a huge need. There's a huge gap when it comes to your kind of product there. But now you talk about the mission next year. Does this involve you, is the satellite itself just gonna get shut off into space or you going to space?

- And so we're gonna be one of the systems on the satellite. So the satellite is about the size of a briefcase and will be one of several hardware components on there that will be doing demonstrations. And then that satellite will be given over to ultimately to SpaceX and it'll hitch a ride on one of those SpaceX rockets to actually fly up to low Earth orbit. - Okay, so you haven't organized yourself a trip there yet? - Myself, personally, no.

- I think you need to just get up there to that international space station because you'll be closer to the project that way. - Yeah, one day.

- Now, SpaceX is, that's, who runs SpaceX now?

- That could be Elon Musk. - So that's Elon's thing. Now, I'm very excited about this stress unit that you've developed in terms of SpaceX 'cause Elon promised us a while ago that we'd get super fast internet from satellites and we haven't got it here yet. So I'm sulking a bit about that.

- Yeah, that's quite an ambitious project. I mean, they want to ultimately launch well over 10,000 satellites into orbit to actually beam down internet. That's gonna be quite a challenge, I think, in terms of managing traffic. In fact, I saw a news article the other day that said 90% of near collisions in space right now is due to those Starlink satellites. So fortunately, all of them have propulsion systems onboard, but they're still using that very expensive gas-based fuel. So you never know, maybe in the future, HyperNova could provide propulsion tech for Starlink. - That would be nice. I would like to hear that. My special guest is Jonathan Lin. We're talking about the propulsion unit, the thruster that he has developed, or they have developed at HyperNova Space Technology. We'll be wrapping it up when we come back. This is what's involved. And we're back with my guest, Jonathan Lin. So Jonathan, you've developed this. There's a prototype for it. You're gonna do testing. In terms of the market, has people shown an interest? Because I'm assuming this is not something that you could just do in your garage. - Well, yeah, I think most of these projects tend to start out in the garage, and then they start to get some serious legs behind them.

So yeah, we're a small team. We're about six people. And yeah, we've engaged with quite a few customers who've shown some interest. And we've also been watching the market and how it's been evolving. And I think propulsion is becoming a lot more recognized. And at some point, I think even gonna be mandated for satellites to avoid the space debris problem and make sure that people are being responsible after it's in space. - Yeah, well, 'cause that's another story entirely. I mean, who would have thought a couple of years ago, 30, 40 years ago, that we'd have to worry about space junk? But us humans seem quite good at doing that kind of thing. Jonathan, as I mentioned earlier, you're gonna be a part of the Singularity U Summit. What are you doing there? - Sure, so I'll be speaking a little bit on a panel about the sustainability of space. And I suppose that also leads a little bit around space debris, but also turning towards the idea that there are resources out there in space. So not only, you know, space is not just a destination that you can go and plant a flag on and claim it for yourself. There are actually a lot of available things like water and metals and other elements out there that we could actually make use of.

So you start sort of traveling on the idea of mining things out there. And a lot of governments and private companies are looking quite seriously into it. And we need to be prepared for it, both technologically, but also socially and economically as well. How do we make sure that Africa, for example, gets to take advantage of it and not be behind in terms of what's next in the future?

- I can see certain countries just going up and saying, well, it's the moon, so we're going to take it all. So yeah, that could be a bit of a challenge. Now, Jonathan, people who are as entrepreneurial as you are and who are as passionate as you are, never have just one project on the go. So you've got this small thruster that you have developed with a great technology. What else is in the pipeline? What's up next for Jonathan? - Yeah, well, at this stage, HyperNova is taking up pretty much all of my time. But looking ahead, I think it's looking beyond just the small satellite market and seeing the opportunities available with our technology, not just for small sets, but for larger satellites and maybe even other applications. So yeah, I think running a business is very much, takes up a lot of your energy and your mental capacity. But I think with that, you learn a lot really around leadership and expanding your skill sets beyond what you're comfortable with. I think a lot of the time, the whole point of the startup is to learn new things and to grow yourself. So yeah, I'm enjoying that journey and I'm happy to have people who are supporting us and who believe in us. - Wonderful stuff.

Jonathan, I think it's brilliant. And the fact that you're a proudly South African and a Jobeg boy initially, as you mentioned, that's incredible. And just knowing that South Africa has got people like you in it is an inspiration in and of itself. So thank you so much for taking the time out and having a chat to us. We do wish you all the very, very best. And I for one, I'm gonna be looking out for your panel discussion at the Singularity U Summit. So thank you so much. - It's a pleasure David, thanks a lot. - There we go. You know, talking space, getting out there, that's what it's all about. My special guest there was Jonathan Lynn. Go check it out, hypernovaspace.com. That's the website address, hypernovaspace.com. Get some idea of what they're doing over there. Well worth a visit just to see, maybe they'll publish some more teasers and videos and things we can, but hope. It wraps it up for this edition of "What's Involved" to each and every one of you. Look after yourselves, take care, and thank you for listening.