Grant Smee — Business owner, Entrepreneur, property rentals and investing

That is yet another edition of What's Involved. My special guest at this time, Grant Smig. Good day to you. Let's say that because everything is all, times are still all mixed up for me. Good day to you Grant. How are you? Fine. Thank you, David. Good, good. Grant is the founder of a company called Epic South Africa. We'll find out a bit more about that. And also the MD of only realty. Is one business not enough? No, I think one focus, property is enough. And then, you know, property offers so many opportunities that I've sort of expanded my reach into that space. Wonderful stuff. Property, and we're going to be talking quite a lot about property during the course of our discussion. It fascinates and terrifies me and we're going to get into that. But first and foremost, tell me a little bit about Grant. Where were you born, raised, school, that kind of thing. How did you end up where you are?

Yeah. So, I grew up in the East Rands, so Boxworth by the sea. And for the first 22 years of my life was out there. Went to school at Boxworth High. So everything was really around the East Rands. And then went to Randolph-Conch University, now University of Johannesburg, to study accounting. And spent five years of doing a three-year degree. And at the end of that period, decided to follow what was my career of choice at that time to be a chartered accountant. So I started my articles. And three months into articles, I decided that's not what I want to do at all. And I booked a ticket to the UK and flew out to London and spent the short haul of 10 years out in London working initially in finance. But after spending three years in the UK, decided to get into property. So I did a property course and then started investing in property, opened a property business, a services business. And that was really the start. That was 2005 now. So 15 years ago. And came back to South Africa to have sought our family in 2010. And continued down the route of expanding both the property investment side as well as the property services side within South Africa. So that's where Only Realty and Epic came from.

Fantastic stuff. And a sort of Australian boy around the corner from me, I was born and bred and grew up in Benigni. So Benigni Boxburg, you know, pretty much of a match. And it's amazing to me how many people you know, everybody jokes about the Eastern, but how many people from the Eastern have gone on to have very successful careers, they've either been in radio, television, whatever the case may be. So I think I think there's a lot to be said for the Eastern and people coming from there. I think we do a lot to get out of the Eastern sometimes as well. So it's one of the two. Got two companies, same focus, as you mentioned earlier on, and that is a property. Which ones did you start first, the Only Realty or Epic South Africa? So Only Realty is a business I got involved in first. It was a franchise when we got back from from the UK, invested in a franchise group called Only Rentals at the time, and quite quickly saw that they needed assistance at the head office level in terms of expanding this business. So I got involved first as a franchisee then as a as a partner in the head office about six months later. And so that was the first business and that's a state agency business, primarily focused on investors and property management, but also has the traditional sales arm to it, which I added later once I took over full ownership of the head office a couple years later. Okay, so that one is as you said, it's mainly, you deal mainly in residential properties, am I correct? That's right, yeah.

So that's a strength that I've had and my focus has been for the last 15 years has been residential property. So we really sort of have stuck to our strengths as much as possible. All right, and then tell me a little bit, we'll obviously get into more of this stuff a little more in depth as we as we go through our chat, but tell me a little bit about Epic South Africa now, what is that and how did that come about? Yeah, so I refer to doing a sort of education, property investment in 2005 and you know, you come from an accounting space and accountants are very sort of they live in a box and they sort of framed and you have a very clear journey, you've got to travel to expand your career and advance and then deciding to go into a completely different space. I felt you know, needed to make sure that I had all the information. So I went through an education process, I went to an education or a property training company and did the training with them in the UK and in 2013, I think they expanded out into South Africa. So I got involved with them, they needed people that had experience in property and could teach South African property and hardworks and so I got involved with them as a coach and a speaker. But where they felt they were falling short was that they were doing a lot of education, but then there was no support beyond the education process. So guys were coming in and spending three, six months with the company and then moving on and then just didn't have anybody around them to help. And as most people that know in entrepreneurship, you know, it's a really lonely journey. So the company said to me, well, this creates a support platform. So once they leave the education side, they get into a space where they join a community, which was EPIC. So EPIC initiative was created as a entrepreneurial property investor community for these students coming out of this education process. And that since expanded into more education and support and content. And now I'm trying to expand it. And if you see our logo, it says health wealth and mindset. So I try to have those three pillars and provide it to our members that they not only focus on creation of wealth through property and business, but also they look after their health, they look after mindset. Because I think all those things work together to create a successful entrepreneur. Wonderful stuff. And I think what you're doing is fantastic. And I think it's very much needed because I remember many, many years ago, old Robert Kiyosaki came up with the whole rich dad, poor dad concept. And part of that was obviously investing in property. If you read the book in those days, it was great if you were based in the United States in South Africa, not so good, particularly if you battle to understand, you know, the way things worked in South Africa. So I think what you're doing is brilliant. When we come back, though, what I'd like to do is I'd like to talk a little bit more about EPIC South Africa. And when you talk about training, how does it start? Where does it start? So when we come back, we'll talk more about that. My special guest is Grant Smee, founder of EPIC South Africa and MD of Only Realty.

It is what's involved. We'll be back in just a bit. And we're back. My special guest is Grant Smee, as I mentioned, the founder of EPIC South Africa and the MD of Only Realty. So EPIC South Africa, Grant, if I may, let's just chat about that for a little bit. You mentioned that it's wealth, health, mindset. You've got a great website. We'll talk about the website later on. But, you know, you say here, I mean, you've got over one of the little blurb I saw, you've got over 1,600 students. What do you teach and how do you teach it? I mean, you know, where do we start off? And who is this target of that? That's many questions. So answer them one at a time, I think. So how do we teach it initially? And pre-lockdown, obviously, it was in a room, in classroom, in conference center, trainings over two days, one or two days. So depending on the course and the course content, what we started looking at even before lockdown came, but as sort of accelerated that process, was taking it more digital. So we do have the courses that are recorded. People can access them, you know, digitally and sit through in their own time and go through the content. And it's all done sort of Zoom style where we have the expert trainer. And it's all expert-led. So I do want to say this is that it's important for me that when we have guys training, they're not just theoretical trainers, but they're guys that have, if they're property developers, they develop property, they've got their hands dirty, they've made mistakes, and they can share those experiences.

So it's digital content provided by our trainers to the students. So that's how we deliver it. How do you get started literally joining the community and just following? Because what I've done is I've tried to try and provide as much free start-up information as possible because, you know, property is one of the things that everybody aspires to it, or a lot of people aspire to it. But once you start getting into it, you just read out, you know, maybe this isn't for me. And what I don't want to do is have people invest thousands of reigns into training when they haven't actually figured out that it's for them yet. So I have free content on our YouTube channel, and we provide podcasts, and there's little, we call them Epic Minutes, Epic Minutes to go out regularly to go out via Instagram profile, so that people start digesting the content and understanding whether it's actually something they want to experience and then do, and then they can come to us and do the training beyond that, if they are more serious and more sure about where they're going. Because that's one of the things, you know, I mean, the concept of owning property and investing in property in order to build wealth is one that's absolutely fascinating. But often, you know, you don't know where to start, because, you know, the traditional thought says, you know, you kind of go to school, go to varsity, do whatever you do, get married 2.4 kids and then and have a home, but to invest in properties. You know, when I was talking to somebody about this a little while ago, they went, oh, yeah, but that's only for the rich.

Is it? Is it only for the rich? So look, it's not a cheap, it's not a cheap journey. That's for sure. You know, it is capital intensive. There's no doubt about that. But it doesn't necessarily have to be your own money. So you talk about Robert Kiyosaki, and we do use a lot of his concept because he's, it's not unique, the concept he's created, it's just how he frames and has been done very well. So it's understandable to everybody. But other people's money is something that we do advocate a lot, we speak about a lot, but it's got to be done safely and properly and with other people's risk profiles considered and providing them with good returns. So you can get into it by simply finding good deals and expanding, offering people returns. But it's got to be done properly. So it's not just for the rich. But what I do want to say is it's for people who realize there's not a get rich quick scheme. It's not something going to become wealthy, you know, overnight in or in fact, probably in five years, you know, it is really a wealth generative tool that you build over over years, if not decades. Okay, so that's the important bit. I mean, investing in property, because I know there are people that are out there that are talking about flipping properties that they'll go out and they'll find this property that's got a lot of potential or whatever. And then in they go, do the whole thing up, flip it and they make it sound incredibly easy and incredibly attractive. And I don't believe it is incredibly easy. Yeah, I mean, there's a few things there. There's, you know, it's a high risk strategy, you need to know what you're doing. It's important that you've got the right bulbs team. So if you're getting started, it's certainly probably one of the riskier ways to go. When you're getting started in property, it certainly can make make you money. But, you know, I haven't seen somebody who's who's built a massive portfolio, easily, or a lot of people build massive portfolios by starting and flipping these properties and bullying, it's really more that slow burn. So maybe you flip a property, take capital invested into a property that's providing a rental return and over time that will build and that's where your wealth is generated. So flipping properties is certainly an option, but it is definitely risky. You know, it's development on existing properties, essentially.

All right. So now take me through a little bit about, you know, if I've now come across this website of yours, and I'm having a look and I go, okay, I might be interested in this. Obviously, we're going to give out email addresses later on. But can you start as an absolute novice? I mean, can somebody, you know, who thinks, look, I might want to get into this. Is there any barriers to entry? That's what I'm asking. So barriers to entry? No, I mean, that's where I really try to clarify people or sort of put a position in for the people that this free content and the free content isn't, you know, I'll give you something and then I'm going to sell you something. It's really saying, well, here is a starting point for you and go through the information. And if you then decide you want to move forward and you need support and training and community and maybe potentially coaching, we have those then options that you can take on with us. But you can get started just with the information that you provided. But I always suggest that if you do get started, whether it's with us or somebody else, that you make sure that you have somebody, particularly when you're getting started, somebody walking that journey with you. So somebody that's experienced this border property, that understands the cost involved, the potential pitfalls. So if that's somebody that you know, a relative, a friend, just have somebody there with you when you're getting started.

Okay. Makes all of this, all of this makes a whole bunch of sense. Business, I assume, was fairly good up until a couple of months ago. From an epic point of view, yeah, I mean, yes, it was good. And to be honest, it's still in the sort of really young startup. It's not a startup, but it's a startup phase. I mean, the business itself is only two and a half years old. The educational component only came in last year. So we're still sort of figuring out really the high demand content and everything else. But I don't want to say it's a side project for me, because it's not something that I rely on for an income right now. It's something that I've started building and I tend to continue building to make sure that there's a business that can support both entrepreneurs and property investors as they go through their journey. So I'm working with a lady called Karaba on building entrepreneur courses and a boot camp to start, get entrepreneurs started because so many people, particularly now because of lockdown, are in a position where they don't have jobs, they don't have an income. So I'm trying to make sure that we have this community and the support platform that can really help both people. And I'm quite focused on growing and creation, that helping people grow things and create businesses to help their financial well-being and take control really is the big thing that I want people to do.

I think that's brilliant. And hearing you talk, I mean, I've run businesses over the years myself and you're right. I mean, you mentioned it earlier on that the journey of an entrepreneur is a very lonely one often. And also, one of the things I refer back to this often is, growing up, I wanted to do a couple of things and then I didn't know what I wanted to be when I was big and all of those things. But, you know, working for a boss was just, it didn't, that wasn't an option for me. But I was never taught. And there was no such thing as an entrepreneur school when I was going through this. And if I think back, there's a lot of very hard lessons I've learned, which may have been, maybe I could have avoided those if there'd been something like this. And I think, because if I understand you correctly, the Epic South Africa is not just property investing, it's also for entrepreneurs. Am I right? That's right. Yeah. So, you know, I headed down, fully down this property route, but quite quickly realized that the asset that I was focused on, the asset class I was focused on was property. But you can focus on other asset classes and your commodity can be different. But the reality is I'm still going down a entrepreneurial route. Just property is the thing that I enjoy. But it doesn't stop me using my experiences, building a property investment business and property services businesses to share that with somebody that's maybe starting a car service business or selling cars or, you know, I don't know, any service or any business that's selling goods. It's the same sort of experiences. I don't need to give industry knowledge, but I can certainly give, share the pains and the mistakes and the areas of my ways to help make sure that somebody doesn't repeat those in the other businesses. I think that's absolutely fantastic. When we come back, we are just, by the way, chatting to Grant Smee, who is the founder of Epic South Africa. He's also the MD of Only Realty. When we come back, I want to tell a bit about property markets and what's happened in COVID-19. We'll talk about that when we come back. What's involved it is. And we're back.

My special guest is Grant Smee, founder of Epic South Africa as well as the MD of Only Realty. Just before the break, Grant, we were talking and I mentioned, I wanted to find out about the real estate business and with COVID-19 and lockdown. Has that affected you guys at Only Realty? And in what ways has it affected you guys? Yeah. Obviously, I don't think there was any industry that came at the other side unscathed to a degree. Maybe if you had a mask business, you might be better off than everybody else. But outside of that, from our perspective, we certainly saw a decline in our rental receipts, so the tenants being able to pay.

And it sort of sat with the national average, which was from some of the stats we saw. About 70% of our tenants were able to pay their rental with 30% not making payments or making partial payments. And that still accounts for the usual 7% to 8% who just don't pay it. So there's problem tenants anyway. So we probably had about a 22% decline in our normal pay rate month on month. And that was the end of May. End of April wasn't too bad. So end of April wasn't too bad. End of May was a little bit worse. But I think, obviously, sales stalled entirely. So a lot of our sales got stuck at the needs office level or in conveyancing, but that's not starting to process as those offices open up. But I must be honest, I was quite proud of our group because there was a justification of our business model, which, you know, I think sometimes you question quick when you're running down the highway of business day to day business and when things are normal, you sort of potentially have some self doubt sometimes about the business model and are we really achieving things we want to be achieving. But then when you go through a period like this, where it's really tough for a lot of industries and these businesses closing their doors, left, right and center, our teams still maintain and sustain themselves. We had one or two of the offices that had record months in May in spite of things. So it was almost for us, we did have a decline. But also it was a justification of our business model, which is great.

That certainly is good news. As I mentioned earlier, I mean, my mom has been trying to sell her house. And just before this lockdown was put in place, she had a buyer, there was an offer to purchase the whole bank shoot and suddenly COVID-19 happened and all of that went by the wayside. Fortunately, as you say, things are sort of opening up and speeding up again. So that process has now been sorted out for her at least. But now you guys, only realty, you've got branches across the country. That's right. We've got 21 offices around the country and 21 franchises in all the major towns. We've got two offices in Cape Town or the Cape Town, great Cape Town area. Most of our offices are based in Joburg. So we've got in the east train of Mononie, all the way up to Ramburg, Grand Park Ridge in Fort West as well. And then Nelspray, Port Elizabeth, Bloomfontaine, we have our offices as well. And then Bellita, Richard's Bay and Pine Town Hillcrest. So we've pretty speed across the country. You guys, as you mentioned earlier on, you're not just an estate agent in terms of selling houses for people. You guys also handle the rental aspect of it? Yeah, so that's our absolute core. And again, because of my property investment focus, there was always the focus of the business was being a business that could help landlords or property investors manage their properties more efficiently, try and do things differently with a focus on their needs. And I took the position that I understand, and I always understood what I needed to get from somebody who's managing my properties. We're trying to apply that across the business. And one of the things we do consistently is this process of revaluation and improvements, so incremental improvements. So our team and our head office team spend a lot of time looking at our processes around management, and how we deal with tenants, and how we do viewings. And we try and just make incremental improvements all the time. So our team conversations are always what can we do better? How do we do them better? So that's the focus. So it really is around managing a property, making sure that landlords or property investors earn the most return out of their money that we can achieve through managing a property efficiently. Does this include things like, and I mean, this is maybe a bit of a curveball, because nobody saw corona coming. But renegotiating with landlords on sort of go to the person who's leasing or renting the property, they go, "Listen, we can't pay." And then do you act as sort of a mediator there? Because I know in commercial properties, very often, there's those guys. I chatted, in fact, the other day, I chatted to John Jack from Galletti. And he was saying they then would negotiate either as the organization renting the property, or they would represent the landlord so that you don't get this, you know, when somebody's upset, suddenly you wake up and they're gone kind of thing. Is that similar to what you do? Exactly the same. So fortunately, we've got some really good industry assistants.

So TPN, Michelle Dickens, and her team, they cut quickly with the advent of lockdown in association with attorneys. SSLR Incorporated came up with a really good structure to help us as a team approach our tenants and landlords and renegotiate situations where tenants, for example, lost their jobs or their income declined and they couldn't make payments. So we quite quickly, from our industry perspective, got guidance on that from TPN and SSLR. And we apply that. So we all go between we are the middlemen between the landlord and tenants. And really, the idea for us is that our landlord shouldn't have to engage with our tenant and our tenant shouldn't have to directly engage with our landlord. We are there to facilitate that relationship and make sure that it works out as smoothly as possible. And the key to that ultimately is communication. And it's the biggest thing is making sure there's very clear lines of communication with both tenants and landlords so everybody knows where they stand and where they are. And that's in spite of a lockdown. That's in any situation around the properties, making sure communication flows quite freely.

I think that's a great approach there because I know I've got a couple of mates and some of them have got properties and they had properties and they decided they didn't want to go the agent route and they were going to handle everything themselves. And it really came back to about them. One of the properties I know for a fact was absolutely trashed by the people that had moved in there. And then they couldn't kind of get the people out, which was a bit of a challenge. Now, if you guys are managing something like that, does it make it easier?

Yes, I mean, it doesn't make it easier. I think it's really hard for an agency, no matter how good they are to manage human beings. Human beings can be very difficult at the best of times. So if you get a bad tenant in there and sometimes they do slip through the cracks of your checks and balances, it's more about how do you resolve it quickly. So there's nothing wrong with individuals managing their own properties. There's certain people that do it very, very well. But my view as a property investor was I didn't want to create myself an additional job. The whole idea of becoming an entrepreneur was not having a job. So if I was going to manage my own properties, then what I've done is I've moved from corporate into creating a job as a landlord. So the approach I took from any reality was let's make sure that we take all those things off of a landlord. But from our approach is if something does go wrong, it's how do we resolve it quickly and how do we minimize the loss to a landlord in terms of a non-paying tenant or somebody who damages a property. And those things come through to again making sure that we have our deposits in place, that the exit inspection is done correctly and that we align with the best experts that can assist us to get a tenant out if we need to. So I spent a lot of time building relationships with the best of industry instead of just going with maybe the attorneys or the service providers that offered the best price or anything else. I really spent a lot of time looking for the guys that are the best and I feel like only royalty we've successfully aligned with the best certainly attorneys and advisors in the industry that can help and assist our landlords. Wonderful stuff. It always seems and very often when I say to people we're going to be having a chat and you know including the music and everything it's going to be about an hour and they go we can never talk for an hour and I always go yeah we can and it's happened again we're running out of time. Grant when we come back I've got a couple of questions for you but we'll do that and we'll do a wrap-up and find out where to next for Grant and Epic South Africa as well as only Realty. It is what's involved and Grant's me my special guest we'll be back in just a bit. And we're back wrapping it up with Grant. So Grant first question in South Africa at this time in terms of residential properties is it a buyer's market? Is it a good time to go out and buy a property? I get asked this question quite a lot of late and it's a sort of a long-winded answer so the answer is it's always a good time to buy property if you're taking a long-term view on it which you really should be so if at any time that you're in position to look to buy you should be out in the market looking to to buy a property and invest in terms of where we stand now it's absolutely going to be a buyer's market for a good part of next 18 months or 24 months next two years at least at a minimum and I feel that for a few things is we're all very aware of what lockdown has done to the immediate market but we're unaware of what's going to happen and what's going to come out of the woodwork in the next six months and I think there's a lot of people that have managed to maybe use savings or dipped into reserves that they have to keep their head above water now but in the next six months we're really going to see the effects of this this of the first year the hard lockdown and also the soft lockdown so early next year we'll start seeing that come up everything come out of woodwork and then then we'll have discounted properties more property coming to the market in terms of supply as well as the affordability of people declining so there'll be less buyers and that's going to put us in a very good as a as a investor put us in a very good position to take advantage of the market then so so 18 to 24 month buyers market is what I'm predicting if not longer okay but now you know somebody that's that's in lockdown and suddenly you go okay well uh we seem to be fairly okay because I know the the the interest rate is not the lowest it's been in like I don't know plenty of years yeah um somebody goes okay yeah maybe we should maybe we should take the plunge now is this something where um you would rather advise a little bit of caution to make sure that your income is guaranteed because I mean if you lose if you lose a job now and you've just bought a house that's going to be a problem isn't it no absolutely so so if you you know if you're going to invest in property there's there's two things here is is firstly the interest at an all-time low right now but that what that says to me immediately is it is although we might have another drop which is being predicted there's another maybe half basis point drop uh coming up that the interest if they're at an all-time low they must go up so if you're making your decision today on the on the low interest rates you must stress test that and say well okay let's lift interest rates another three four five percent to see what is the house property going to perform at five percent um higher interest rates to make sure that in two years time if that does happen that you're you're not um now feeding the property and putting in a negative position and then part two is when you're buying a property you need to make sure that there's not only one strategy so although your strategy might be you want to buy buy this property to rent it out um if you do get yourself in trouble and you lose your job and you can't afford to pay any shortfall against that property for whatever reason or in fact you lose your job and and and you know by um coincidence your your tenant also loses their income then suddenly you've got to pay for example two bonds you need to make sure that there's a second extra strategy in terms of property so maybe you've bought it at a discount you can you can resell that and break even and get your money out or you can rent it out to multiple people or there's there's something else you can do with it to make sure that it's generating income because the reality is the most expensive uh thing in property is when your property is empty or you've got a tenant that's not paying um you know if that property is not generating income that can be the most expensive um and without that cash flow like any business that'll kill you so it's a second extra strategy and stress test your numbers before you even go into the property fantastic some good advice there Grant um i'd like to there's a couple of things i'd like to ask uh my guests before we before we let them go so the first thing i'm going to ask um i mean chatting to you now it's it's been a fairly short period of time but you can certainly hear that that you're incredibly passionate about property you love what you're doing um and and and you've put in the the the the long hard miles um what is something about grant that people wouldn't generally know i'd like to know something about grant just to you know what is what do people not know about grant what do people not know about grant um so so extremely passionate about sport um that's one thing i think people do know um but a lot of people don't know that i i am for for my support maybe it's it's a good or bad thing i don't know um i represented england um it's in touch rugby um at two world caps um so so i am an england national or england international tatra repair um which is something not a lot of people know um especially living in so they don't tell too many people that are paid for another country yeah i was about to say here of all the things you could have shared maybe that playing international rugby for england wasn't the one but i'm sure we'll we'll forgive you for that um grant we we're next uh for let's start off with only realty what what is your vision we're next for that yeah so uh uh vision with only realty myself and my partners that that i have um are to expand the footprint um we do feel that we've got a great business model from our management side and looking after landlords and property investors so our expansion and expanding our footprint with our franchisees and the fortunate thing for us is our franchisees are expanding themselves as well as they expanding the areas they're working on so we've got this organic growth as well as um we're looking to grow through to take our new franchises so so that's the the sort of focus on only realty side with continuing innovation so pushing down our costs making sure that we have the annuity income balding which again like i mentioned earlier is the justification of our business model so so yeah just really building our footprint as much as possible um across the country from a nine-year-old perspective fantastic um epic side africa because it sounds to me like like well well only realty is is is the foundation of the business this sounds to me uh epic side africa sounds very much like a passion project yeah i think i think it's actually the passion project and for two reasons is that i i don't don't and it's always uh you always feel like people aren't doing it well enough i don't think there's enough support for entrepreneurs in the country yet um i don't think there's enough support for property investors in the country and i don't think that there are businesses that are coming come to that space with the right intention so a lot of guys are generating their income and their and making their money from from support is entrepreneurs versus coming to space where they just want to grow and build people and part two is my wife and i came back to south africa because we believed that this was the right space for us to have a family and bring up our children and i think that what we can do if we can just contribute to growing and building in the country individually it will be a very very different place and if i can help people take control of their financial well-being and they're not reliant on on their jobs or in fact the government to do that then this country can be a very very different place if we just start taking control of our own financial situation

well those are some very very wise words so thank you very much grant um it's it's one of the things i'm so glad to hear you said because it's one of the reasons behind this show is to grow small medium micro enterprises and and to provide entrepreneurs with with just you know a little bit of hope that's why we we chat to authors we chat to business people just to say listen we've done it we can do it this is what we're doing um and i hope you know by doing this show that we do we get to to contribute in some small way to change in this country so grants me founder of epic south africa as well as md of only realty thank you so much for taking the time out and having a chat to us we wish you all the best if somebody wants to find out um about uh epic south africa where's the best place to go for that so um you can go to our website which is epic epic south africa.com or drop me an email at um grants at epic south africa.com and i'll i'll come back to you okay so it's epic south africa.com is the one and then only realty i'm i'm sure you've got a website for that as well it's also that's that's only realty.co.za and again my email address for only realty is grant@onlyrealty.co.za there we go so if you're looking to buy or sell properties only realty certainly sounds like the place to go if you want to get into the investing side of it have a chat to grant at epic south africa grant sme thank you so much and we do wish you all the best thanks for chatting thank you there there we go it wraps it up my special guest there grants me i'll give you those addresses once again it's epic south africa.com if you want to find out about that entrepreneur and investing training and only realty.co.za we'll chat to you again soon