Derek Cikes — Commercial Director Payflex

My special guest in studio right now, talking something that fascinates me, Derek Sikes is from a company called Payflex, you are the commercial director. Good evening. Welcome, Derek. Hi, and thank you, and welcome to the viewers as well. Yeah, it's lovely to have you here. Okay, so when we sort of started chatting about getting you into the studio with us, I'm fascinated about the state of South Africa's online buying economy. I mean, do we have one? Is it growing? Is it not growing? Because you get so many mixed results or mixed answers back. People go, "Oh, I've done it. I would never trust my credit card to any of these dodgy people." And then other people who literally go, "It's the best thing ever. I can do all my shopping from home. Don't have to go out. Don't have to worry about traffic, about queues." What is the thousand foot view of this online purchasing in South Africa? So the thousand foot view, I mean, without trying to bore everyone with numbers, I can throw out a couple of quick numbers. In 2018, there was roughly 14 billion rand spent in South Africa online. 2019, that number is expected to be around 18 billion rand, and then that's projected over the next couple of years to grow to about 24 billion rand.

So it's a substantial amount. Now, if you put it in the context of the total retail economy, it's a smallish number, but it's growing. It's growing faster than the normal retail trade. Retail trade last year grew at 6%. Online trade grew at 20%. So it's a growing market. It's a big market currently, and it's only going to get bigger in our view. Well, I mean, I've seen some English running in a pair of lips for a horse here. I have seen some stats that suggest worldwide online business is literally going to be multi, multi-billion dollars in the next couple of years. So it is, I mean, and you just have to look at a couple of key things, right? Largest company in the world, Amazon. Yes. So that goes without speaking. And people say to you, but that's not just purely online, right? They've got physical stores now and so forth and so forth. Yes, that's right, but more and more, they're picking up new ways of people's behavior. So for me, it's not about our things going online, it's about how people's behaviors are changing and how business is adapting to that. And how does Payflix fit into this though? Because as I mentioned to you when we were off here, I've got a couple of little sites online and there is online payment and man, to start off with, maybe I'm not the brightest as we discussed earlier in terms of my programming capabilities, but it's been very, very difficult to get it set up and even in a rudimentary kind of way for me.

But how does Payflix fit in? Where are you? What do you do? I think before we get into where Payflix comes into the world, you talk about online trading. Yes. And online trading is not actually that different to trading in the bricks and mortar space. There's a couple of basic principles that need to be followed. One, you've got to have a market, you've got to have an idea that the market wants to buy, and then you've got to have the ability to deliver the goods in return for cash. And the reality is in any business, cash is king. So where we see ourselves as Payflix is the ability that helps the online trader get to their cash as soon as possible. So we do a couple of things. One obviously is payments portal. So we have the ability to move cash from the consumer to the merchant at the end of the day. And that deals with all the backend transactions that happen with all the different banks, the interchanges, et cetera, et cetera. Is this an international thing though? So in other words, could somebody from the States see our little online presence and go, yes, I'd like to purchase. So now that's a little bit trickier than meets the eye because in order to be able to transact in South Africa, you need to be able to transact and put money into a South African bank account.

So typically the only way to do that is if you have a debit or credit card, because then MasterCard, Visa, and that will be the underlying mechanism that or the backbone that everybody operates within. So we are fully integrated with both Visa and MasterCard. So we have the ability, if you have somebody overseas who wants to transact with you, to be able to take part in that particular thing. But more importantly with inside Africa? Correct. Yeah. Okay. Now, the name implies flexibility though. Yep. So we're just talking off air. One of the things that we try and do is not just move money from party A to party B, but to try and understand what the markets are doing in terms of their behavioral. And what we've seen internationally is what we like to call a payments revolution. What's starting to happen more and more is, and this is largely the millennials and I said offline, I don't really like using the term millennials, but the younger generation are coming through and saying, you know, we don't necessarily trust the big banking institutions. We don't want to be told how to do things. We want to have the flexibility and the ability to do with our money as we wish. So when I buy something online and it's going to take three, four days to get it, how do I know it's going to come through?

What's my security as a consumer? And so what we're seeing on a global basis is people are turning around and saying, well, hang on, I want to pay a little bit now and then I want to be able to manage how I pay the rest of that money. And so that's the kind of thing that we've introduced to the South African market now, which is what we call pay later through Payflex, which is the ability to say, right, I bought a thousand rand pair of shoes online. I'll pay 250 rand today. My shoes will be dispatched. We as Payflex will settle the merchant instantly, so they'll get their full thousand rand. And then between us and the consumer, we will then work out a payment plan to repay the remaining 750 rand over a period of six weeks. But it's also, I mean, then you at least get, because I think this is a problem and the trust issue is massive here, is you're now going to buy that thousand rand pair of shoes. You hit that pay button. The money's gone. Yep. All right. And you don't know for certain that you're going to get that little package delivered in however long it takes to your door. And I think maybe that creates a lot of uncertainty. So yes, there is that perception. I think that's kind of like a human trust issue that's coming through there.

Because the reality is that any online business that doesn't deliver on time and within the promised delivery and the quality that they've said, the goods are going to come back and or they're going to get a bad reputation in the market. So what you want to, so I don't think that's too much of a worry, but the human nature still says in the back of your mind, well, am I going to get it? It's the first time I'm transacting with this. I haven't dealt with these guys. The next time you deal with them, it's going to go through a lot easier. But just to show you how pervasive that kind of mindset is, 80% of all online baskets get abandoned. Yes. And that is that last little, ooh, am I going to get my goods or am I getting the right deal? Or there's that last little bit of worry that comes through. And so where we come in with Payflex products or the Paylaser product is that you've got this a little bit more of flexibility in terms of how you're paying and security around what you're getting. And it's interest free, no fees, no catches. So it's great for the consumer at the end of the day. I like that though, from an affordability perspective is that you can go, all right, I'm going to buy, and we're using shoes now as an example, I'm going to buy these.

So could I literally then go, okay, I'd like to buy the 1,000 rand pair of shoes, pay 250 right now, at the end of the month, I want to pay another 250 in the balance a month later. Is that what it, maybe I'm oversimplifying? No, it's effectively that, I mean, you'll pay the remaining 750 in three or four installments, but over a six week period. Okay. So it's equal amounts over that period of time. And then you go in and buy the next set. What we're finding, if you have a look at the typical South African market at the moment, is that people get paid normally around the 20th to the 30th of the month. So what you'll find in online trade or in the retail trade is that come between the 10th and the 20th of the month, people are at the end of their wallets and there's too much month left. Way too much month at the end of your money, you know the feeling. Exactly. So what you're finding is that this kind of product has a great application in that space. Your desire to buy something doesn't disappear because your wallet's empty. Your desire to buy is still there. And so now you've got the flexibility to be able to go in and say, "Hey, right, I can get in. I can pay my 250 now. I can pay the rest of a six week." Split this purchase over two paychecks and hey, Presto, I've got what I want.

What makes sense to me as well now, and it's, I mean, this is brilliant because this is one of those ideas when you slap your son, why didn't I think of that? Because particularly for higher ticket items, affordability is a question and very often because people are trying to incentivize you in terms of online purchases, there will be a special offer running. And you're like, "Oh, it's not, it's, and exactly as you put it, it's the 20th now. This thing runs for three days, by the 25th it's gone, price is going to double. I wish I could get it now." You're making that that much easier. Yeah, we do to a certain extent. But at the same time, we're also trying to be responsible about how we go through this whole process, right? We're not trying to get people to position where they cannot afford their repayments. No, because then we would be going a route that's been done before. Correct. And we manage that by when people sign up for the Payflex account, we manage how much they get given in their spending plan at the end of the day. So we don't allow people to spend hundreds of thousands of rounds if they only have a smaller income. But that would make sense anyway, because you guys have to be registered and follow laws and rules of the land, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Correct. So are we, well, I'll tell you what we're going to do. When we come back, I want to find out a little bit about how we are spending online. And if you can give me an idea of where we're going with that, my special guest today with me tonight from Payflex, the commercial director of Payflex, Derek Sykes, it fascinates me this whole online world and buying things online. We'll be back with more. What's involved this Monday night, my guest in studio is the commercial director of Payflex, Derek Sykes. So we're talking about Payflex, what it does, how it does. I want to know about, and maybe I am putting you on the spot. You're allowed to say so. I'm known for doing that. What is the South African consumer's attitude to buying online, because to me, it seems like a fairly natural thing, but I spend a lot of my life online and I'm online a lot of the time. So for me, it wasn't so much of a transition. But I mean, for somebody like my mom, for example, if I mentioned to her, buy something online, she's horrified. Yeah. She's like, what do you mean? I got to buy something from a photo and I hope it's going to get to my house. What are we like as South Africans? Sure. So I don't think we're too different from the rest of the world as a starting comment.

What we are different in is that we're probably slightly smaller than an American economy, a UK economy, or the Europe. We similar to kind of what happens in Australia, but by and large, you've got to have a look at the market in stratified layers. There are our moms that are out there who haven't used the internet as pervasively as we have. There's us who we could probably determine as early adopters. And then there's a big portion of the market, which are people who have never not known having a cell phone or being online. And so you can't kind of paint this market with one brush and say, everybody's like us. And you've got to kind of have a look at each of those different layers of the market. So when we talk about our moms and our dads who have struggled to go online and they distrust the buying a picture and hoping it arrives, they're going to struggle with the online thing. And let's be honest, they also struggle with how to use their thumbs on a phone or a mobile tablet. But the younger generation, the guys that are coming into the market today, it's natural for them. They see something on Instagram, they see something on Facebook, and they want it. They want to be able to access it immediately.

And I always used to joke with friends of mine that said, the world really got messed up when they invented the microwave because things got quicker. And then they invented Wi-Fi and things got even faster. So now you're walking down the street, you see somebody in the nice pair of jeans, you want to know where to get them. Well, you just pick up your phone, you scroll, you have a little search and you can find what you want. So I think it's very difficult to kind of classify the South African market as just purely one thing and everybody is doing it in one way. There's lots of layers to it. Okay. Where does Payflex come in? Because let me say, there's a couple of online retailers in South Africa now. I don't know if we're as big as the rest of the world, but let's use one of the big ones. Do they have to be affiliated with you or does that not matter? No, no. So very much they have to be affiliated with us. We're in a big rollout at the moment and there are three kind of key platforms that are used in the market to develop an online site. It's things like Magento, Shopify, where you can have your own bespoke platform that you build. Now, you know, the bespoke platforms we're integrating into those on a daily basis with our various merchants that we've signed up and Magento, we're signed up with them and we've just signed up now a big contract with the Shopify guys.

So we're in a process now being able to be appointed as a payments platform on any of those. Now to do that as a merchant, you get in contact with us or we're on a big drive and in terms of outbound sales, we're signing up contracts as we go along. Once we've signed up the contract with the merchant, the merchant will then display a Payflex Pay Now button or Pay Later button. And when the person's in their basket, they will select either of those. The consumer in the background has already been pre-qualified through our process and then it's one click and then the payment's done. And we take care of everything in the background for the merchant and the consumer. So if you want to do, if you are a merchant, if you're selling something online in the country right now, they can get hold of you. You guys can help. We'll give some info towards the end of the show. But also, if I am a consumer and I want to be able to take advantage of the Payflex, the flexibility aspect of it, I would then also go to the website, log on there and there's obviously a process to go through. Well, so that's kind of in our minds, kind of going through the back door. The front door is really when you're online with the retailer that you're wanting to be purchasing from, you go into your basket, you click checkout and then the Payflex option will show up as one of the payment options there.

So it's that simple, I just click on that and then it takes me through the rest of it. It's as simple as that. And that's the thing that's important to us, right? We spend a lot of time having a look at the usability and I was actually with my mother in law about three, four nights ago and she did come back from a camping trip and she'd broken a piece on her cob. So she'd gone online, she'd found one of these camping online sites to find the piece that was missing and she went through this process of trying to figure out how to make the payment. It took me, my wife and her at least an hour and a half to figure out how to make the payment. It was that complicated. Now that's the kind of thing that we try and solve as Payflex with kind of this one click approach. So if you're a registered Payflex user, one click payment's done, you're into the either pay now or pay later kind of process. So it does definitely make things easier but it does, certainly I would imagine if I was a Payflex user, I would have a certain amount of confidence and security knowing that I've purchased a product that's obviously gone through, you know, the guys have become partners with them. So, you know, you've got some sort of idea what they're like.

But if everything sort of goes to hell in a hand basket, I haven't paid the whole lot yet. Is there, is there a security aspect that you just feel better about it? Well, I think it's, you do feel better about it, right? Because as you said, if I'm buying a thousand rand pair of shoes, I'm paying 250 today, get my shoes tomorrow and the 750 is over six weeks. So there is that confidence that I get as a consumer as the merchant. It's the other way around. The merchant has the confidence that says, well, hang on, I can dispatch these goods because I'm getting my thousand rand tomorrow. So, you know, the risk around the non-payment sits with Payflex, not with the consumer or the merchant at the end of the day. Which again makes things a whole lot easier. So give me, you know, the immediate implication for that, right, is that we were talking earlier, 80% of all online baskets will be abandoned. Yeah, I was actually going to get on to that. So I tell you what, we can, I want to talk about cart abandon because it's a massive thing. But before we come back, let's talk about what happens there. Because I think for any online retailer, that must be the most frustrating thing, particularly if you get those abandoned cart reports, which really irritate me.

But anyway, we'll talk about that when we come back. My special guest from Payflex in studio with me is Derek Sykes. My special guest in studio with me this evening from Payflex, it's Derek Sykes, the commercial director. I said, we're going to come back and we're going to talk about something and it's gone. It went, it left. It was the abandoned cart, which abandoned you. It abandoned me. My cart was abandoned. My mental cart got abandoned. It's one of the worst things to see. If you run an online shop of any description, an online store of any description, the abandoned carts, because it is, I don't know, you know, it's like, it is a trusting, I think a lot of it. But to see what you said, it's as high as how many percent now? 80% across the market. 80%. And that kind of floored me because, you know, when we look at the stats, I was always convinced and I used to have some debates with the guys back at the office and I used to say, oh, no, no. So, you know, someone like XYZ, they're going to have a very low abandoned rate. Let's have a, let's have a look. Oh, no. It's also in the 70, 80% mark. And we were hard pushed to find abandoned cart rates below 70% in the market as a whole.

That was until we introduced the Paylator product and we see that we're able to bring those abandoned cart rate, rate numbers down by about 30%. Really? So, from your high 80s, you come down to close to like 50, 60%. Now, you see, if you're not involved in the online world, that difference is not going to sound like a lot. But trust me, if you are bringing my abandoned carts down to only 60%, that makes a big difference. And it's not only that, what we also see then is the average, you know, basket size increases by 20% as well. And that, you know, it's all down to the ability for somebody to pay and be able to afford what they want at that moment in time. I'm not sure if we're talking online or offline about that, but majority of the time you sit in a market where people get paid between the 20th and the 30th of the month. But anywhere between the 10th and the 20th of the month, your desire for stuff still exists. So, you know, what do you do then? You don't necessarily have the full thousand rand. So how do you do it? Well, then you've got to go get credit, but then you're paying interest. So, or you got to take a personal loan, but then you're paying interest. And those are not great options, particularly for a large part of the market today who sees paying interest as, I want to, in inverted commas, evil.

Well, a lot of people are questioning it. They're questioning, you know, why this kind of interest? Why the levels of interest that we are paying in this country? Well, I suppose there's a question about why the level of interest and why do the banks have the biggest buildings? Oh, don't get me started. Do not get me started. I have an issue with a lot of stuff that happens out there. And you know, they say that the answer is crypto. We shall see what will happen there. Speaking of which, any thoughts on your side in terms of pay flex about crypto? So, you know, cryptocurrencies are out there, they are not going to go away. I actually just finished reading Bitcoin billionaires about the guys that got started into the whole Bitcoin trade originally and how they grew from, you know, $1, $2 for a Bitcoin to where it is now, $10,000. I wish I'd done it then. But the underlying theme that comes out about cryptocurrency is that it's, well, why do you want to let governments and big business dictate to you as a consumer how things should be? And that's kind of these ongoing themes that keep coming out. You know, the Arab Spring was similar to that. You know, any of the new developments that are happening on the online space, it's all about people trying to express their way of doing things without being told how to do things.

And that's kind of what we're seeing happen in the payment space as well. People don't want to be told you can only do things in this way. They want to have flexibility in the way they approach things. And I noticed, you know, as I said, I did a lot online and a lot of the guys online, particularly overseas now, are doing a payment plan. Okay. However, this is a payment plan that costs you because you will see you can say, okay, you can pass the $1,000 right now, or you can do a payment plan where you pass $400 a month for three months. And then you sit there and go, but hang on, that works out a little bit more. Yep. With you guys, you're going, okay, we're going to do this. Obviously they're checks and balances. Yeah. I mean, you know, if I'm just Joe Shope that comes in off the street and I say, I'd like to be a, I'd like to be a, you know, use your service, your gateway. Yep. Obviously you're going to ask a few questions as a consumer. Are you going to ask a few questions as well? So when you first sign up, we will do a profiling and obviously we'll do a credit scoring. We'll go and have a look at the credit bureau and see what your credit profile looks like. Yeah. Together with that, we require you to have a credit card or a debit card.

And then from there, we will set up your pay flex account, which will determine how much you can spend at any one time using your pay flex account. Now, is that, is that like you do with some accounts over time, if your, if your online behavior is acceptable, does it, does it then increase your? It will start increasing. So the more you use it, the more you'll be able to increase that spending limit. But at the end of the day, what we try and do is make sure that it's you, you're in control of how you spend. And we manage that risk on behalf of the merchant at the end of the day. We don't charge interest. We don't charge fees. And there's no catches in, in terms of how we approach it. The, you're going to ask me the question because I can see it on your lips is like, so how does that work? Because somehow there's got to be interest. Somebody's got to pay is exactly what I was going to ask. So if you think about it, right, we're talking about a six week payment plan. So we're not talking about long-term credit in any way or form. So the way we structure our fees, the merchant does pay a slightly higher merchant fee, which will then offset any need for any interest or credit charges to the consumer at the end of the day.

But again, I mean, and as I'm thinking this through, I mean, it is of benefit to both the consumer and the merchant because you, you, you, you're able to sell more of your product. Your abandoned card issue becomes less. Yes, you may be paying slightly more upfront, but at least your money is guaranteed. Well, just think of it this way and what are those numbers I quoted to you earlier. Those are not hypothetical numbers. Those are case studies that we've done for some of the merchants that we have in South Africa right now. We've been able to reduce their abandoned card rates from the 80s down by 30%. We've been able to increase their average spend that their customers are spending in their space by 20 odd percent. So you're talking about a significant increase in revenue at a very small additional cost in terms of the service fees. Now, in terms of the kind of businesses that you are wanting to get involved with, small little Joe Public like me that sells an online course, maybe not your target market? No, no, absolutely anybody that is transacting online. There's two sides to our business, right? Okay. The first is that we want to help you as the online merchant make sure that you have a secure, stable environment in which to transact, one which is super simple and straightforward for your consumers or your marketplace to use, and thirdly, give them options in terms of how they pay.

So when we check all those boxes for you, we make sure that you've got a better business at the end of the day together with us because for us, it's about volume and making sure that people are spending online. Because I must tell you, I mean, I've got a payment gateway that I use and it hasn't been a problem. It hasn't been terribly much of a challenge. I can't turn around and go, "Well, it's been horrible," but I am thinking now, what would it do if I had a product like yours? So bear in mind, we'd love to be an exclusive arrangement with you, but we're open to an open relationship as well. I can have multiple gateways. And that's the reality. I mean, we've seen some of our merchants out there with 13 different payment gateways, allowing people to use any number of different methods to receive payment. But our advice to those merchants is that you're actually creating more confusion for your customer at the end of the day. People need the ability to do things straightforward and simply. They don't want complexity in a decision-making process. No. Well, you start losing people. The more clicks that they are forced to make in terms of the process, there's a drop off. I mean, and a lot of times, somebody's going to be really determined before they actually hit that bar button.

Well, that was like my mother-in-law trying to find the replacement for a cop. I want it. And she had to pull in me and her daughter to get that solved, and we still didn't get it right. No, no. I've done that a few times as well. I was looking at something on one of these sites, and then I was guilty of abandoned court because half the way through I got distracted, and I forgot about it, and I got this email. And then I took it very personally. "What do you mean? What are you emailing me telling me I've abandoned my court?" It was my choice. But I am a great proponent. I still have that hesitancy, though, if I buy online. I do. I must be honest. And it's something I do all the time. I mean, a lot of my businesses' expenses are online expenses and international services. And I still go, "Okay, more credit card number to these guys. I hope everything's going to be okay." Sure. Internet security is always a big question that comes up across everybody. There are a number of standards that are applied to payments companies and people that hold credit card information. If you don't uphold those standards, your business gets shut down very quickly. So when you're talking about the payment portals, they are a lot more secure.

Nobody's impregnable. Things can go wrong. But it's just as if you're in the bricks and mortar world, banks can get robbed as well. I always say use common sense. Common sense is not always that common, but don't leave passwords lying around. Don't leave data unattended. Make sure your security patches are up to date. Keep those things updated all the time, and you should be in a better space. But that's also one of the reasons we would go through a payment gateway like yourselves. Yes, that does help. But I'm not sure how you would make a payment other than passing your credit card details by email to the online retailer, which happens a lot of the time. I'm about to say, don't laugh, it's been done, it's been done. And that in itself, you don't have to worry about the merchant, right? Yeah. The merchant's probably good, but you don't know who's having a look at every email that's coming across to that merchant or what's happening on that side. Do they print out that piece of paper when they go off to go and cash it, or do the credit card transaction? That's where the risk starts coming in, and that's where online payment portals take care of that risk for you, they're certified, they keep your data secure, et cetera.

All right, well, we're almost out of time. We're going to ask you one or two questions when we come back. One of those is, what we'll be finding out is, where do we go to find out more about Payflex? We'll find out more about that when we come back. We're chatting online transacting, and we are chatting to the commercial director of Payflex, Derek Sykes. So Derek, if people are now interested in either becoming a merchant, or is that where you start? I mean, I would come to you as a merchant, I wouldn't come to you and say, "I'd like to use your service with any fancy people you've got, I'm a consumer." Well, so you've got to approach this question from either consumer or from merchant side as a merchant. If you want to join up, payflex.co.za, there's an online application that can go through there. It'll put you in touch with our sales team. One of our sales execs will come and spend some time with you, put together the merchant agreement, and then we work with you in terms of activating the various APIs. That sounds very fancy, but that's just really the integration between your platform and our platform, and then we get you up and live. Minimum turnover is required, or, I mean...

No minimum turnover required. So a small guy like me could benefit from that medium, and obviously the corporates. So that's from a merchant perspective. I would do something like that if I wanted to be able to offer terms for my goods. Correct. All right. Now, from a consumer perspective... From a consumer perspective, that's a little bit easier. So your favorite merchant online, you see your stuff when you go to your payments basket. Payflex should be there. If it's not there, just give them a nudge and say, "Hey, why aren't you using Payflex?" Alternatively, you can go to payflex.co.za and you hit on the consumer portal, and then that'll allow you to do the online application process there, and it'll give you a rundown of all the merchants that we currently operate with. Well, you've just answered my final question, is am I going to be able to see which merchants there are? Absolutely. So payflex.co.za? That's correct. Fantastic. Deke, I wish you all the best, I mean, it is a fairly new business in terms of in South Africa. Internationally, it's been going a bit longer, but you've got some massive support behind you. You're in a very competitive market, but it certainly sounds like you guys have thought this one through.

Yeah. And as we're on radio, it'd be quite neat to kind of just point out that one of our bigger merchants is going live on the 14th of October, which is Subobolist, which we're looking forward to that. And then in November, it's Black Friday coming up, so, you know, we'll be all over helping people on Black Friday as well. Good, because it's time Black Friday got done properly, soon as though we're inheriting all of these American trends, we might as well do Black Friday properly. Yep. Because South Africa hasn't got a clue yet, I don't think, in my opinion. Yeah. And some of the guys have got it right, there's a long way to go, and some of the others. Yeah, there is a very long way. Anyway, Deke, thank you so much for taking the time out, coming in, I know we kept you away from family and everything at this time of night, but we do appreciate it. And we wish you and everybody, indeed, at Payflex, all the very best, I hope to hear from you in the future. Yeah, thank you. It's been really cool being on your show. It's an absolute pleasure. There we go. My special guest in studio, Derek Sykes, payflex.co.za, if you want to find out a little bit more about that. On that note, I'm up and out of here, it's Pete and Dean's Music Time Machine coming up next.

Look at that, look at that, Peter, I got it right. It's only because Peter was sitting here next to me, and he just told me about it, Pete and Dean's Music Time Machine. I love driving home to these guys on a Monday night, thoroughly enjoy it, he's looking way too relaxed. So if he tells you he was at mixed fest, take it with a dose of pinches salt, because I don't know. I saw somebody looked a lot like him, but he was way too sober. Anyway, listen, I'm up and out of here, as always, thank you for listening.