Andie Brocklehurst — Internet marketer supreme, online business expert

It's a Monday night and it's just gone seven o'clock. Welcome to it. What's Involved, I hope you've had a pleasant weekend, all things considered. I thought tonight, it's been a long time, so I thought what we would do is, first and foremost, say thank you very much. The podcast is now of the What's Involved show, now being downloaded in around about 14 countries around the world. So that is very good news. Not to mention all of the Facebook shares and likes and all of those goodies and bits and pieces. Sarah, if you are involved with that, thank you. Thank you very much. I'm joined on the line now for the first time in this new year by internet marketing guru extraordinaire, Andy Brocklehurst. How are you, Andy? - I'm good, David, how are you? I can't believe it's March already. Last time we spoke was before Christmas, wasn't it? - Yeah, and we were like, okay, we're gonna do this again, we're gonna do this again and then sort of life and the new year happened. - That's right, yeah, exactly. We've all just been busy and then it comes together as it always does, so that's good. - Yeah, so we haven't chatted for a while and the big news, of course, is this whole COVID-19, the coronavirus going all over the place, everything's getting canceled.

Even here in South Africa, apparently, things are, people are getting quite scared and quite nervous, but that shouldn't affect the internet marketing world, should it? - No, it should be good news for us on the whole. Because when people, as companies and organizations take these measures and so they are encouraging certain people to work at home at the moment, you've also got people that are now getting a little bit more afraid of going out. And I'm not saying whether they should or they shouldn't, they're grown ups, they make their own decision based on the facts that they're given. But one thing's for sure is that times like this, people look even more at stuff on the internet because when you seclude yourself and do self-isolation, what are you gonna do? Sit at home and what are you gonna do? Sit on the internet, 'cause that's your full communication with the world and how you can get your news and everything else. So for online marketers, I would actually expect this, obviously a dreadful thing that I wouldn't wish on anybody, but I would see it as, from a business point of view, you can certainly see positive. I mean, markets are tumbling and things like that, but us guys at work at home, I think we're gonna be okay.

- Yeah, I noticed today, I mean, a couple of the bits and pieces that I'm subscribed to are in dollars and that was like $16 to the round. And the last I saw, 21 round, 16 round to the dollar, let me be accurate there, and 21 round to the British pound. So if you could travel, this would be a great time to come and visit us. - Exactly, exactly. - What is happening in the world of internet marketing at the moment, Andy, because I've noticed over the last one, I don't know if this is just the beginning of the year thing, but there's been a lot of stuff that's been released on places like Warrior Plus and a couple of those others.

And yeah, I don't know where to look to find anything interesting these days, 'cause that was mostly crap. - Yes, I think sadly the marketplaces that become known for this become known for it because they don't really have any real checks and balances in place. They claim that they have a review process, but that review process is weak to say the least. And who gets, what gets a blind eye turn to it very much depends on who you know, not on we're making this a clean marketplace. So, and I'm not saying the platform you mentioned or any other, I'm just saying platforms in general, this happens too, because they try and find a balance between making money and keeping it ethical. And of course, you're always gonna make more money if you let more rubbish onto your system because, and hide behind the excuse, well, we're just the payment processor, it's not our fault. And this is why ClickBank has rebuilt its reputation. At one point, ClickBank was considered an awful marketplace 'cause it was full of, you know, and eventually they realized because of their status, they wanna, you know, as a bank almost, that they had certain things, certain other authorities they had to answer to that were gonna hold them accountable.

And so they cleaned their act up. And now as a digital marketplace, anyone that buys on ClickBank knows they're safe because if the vendor doesn't give you a refund, you just talk to ClickBank and they'll sort it out. - Which is-- - So it takes away all the shady nonsense that goes on. And ClickBank have a very, a fairly rigid, and I'm not gonna say it's the best because I see some things on sales pages that I don't think should be there, but on the whole, the sales pages on ClickBank all pass and get, you know, FTC and all the other legal obligations that they have. So I just think that the other marketplaces that we're seeing a lot of crap in at the moment, they just, if they don't tighten their game, they're gonna get known for it now and end up going out of business 'cause everyone would just stop buying from them, or they can just tighten it up a little bit more and actually say, no, we are really gonna be accountable for what's on our platform. - And I think they should, and I think long-term that's where it's gonna go because, you know, you can only get ripped off so many times and then, you know, if you're somebody that's sitting in a place like South Africa and are wanting to try and get online, to try and do some online marketing, make some money online, you know, those are the places that pop up and you look at that and you think, oh, okay, well, you know, so-and-so says this is great and there's all this wonderful social proof and you buy it and it's an absolute load of rubbish and oftentimes you can't afford it.

And as you get a bit more experienced, you start to see that, you know, there's a lot of trickery and fakery out there and that's one of the reasons that we enjoy talking to you and, you know, 'cause you and Kurt have founded something called Society11, we spoke about it rather extensively last year. There was talk towards the end of the year, you were gonna close membership down. Have your arms been twisted or is it in fact closed yet? We, right, what we did, we did close it at the price it was at, no one can get it at that price anymore, it will never be offered at that price ever again. But what we haven't done is hit, we've also, we set two numbers, we set a cap on members and our cap for Society11 that we're aiming for is 500 members in there. And so what we have said is that we will leave the doors open until we hit that cap. We've always said that that cap was there. So what we've done is we've been honest as much as we closed the offer that existed and the price has now gone up, but you can still get in. - Good, 'cause it's one of the things if you, in the slightest bit interested in trying to make some money online, figuring it all out, Society11 is the place to go because there's a great bunch of people there.

They're all happy to help, they'll give you opinions. - I've had some great advice, particularly from yourself, which mainly revolved around get a few butt and do something. But, you know, you can't just buy the product and hope that the thing will work for you. You've actually got to put in a whole bunch of work. But let's talk a little bit about that when we come back, Andy, if we could. A little bit about, you know, I'm sitting wherever I am in the world now and I'm thinking, I need to do something. You know, we've got the scare on at the moment. I'm being forced to stay at home, whatever the case may be. Who knows what the future holds. Maybe, you know, with all the economies going somewhere, I might be out of a job. Where do I start online? So when we come back, can we get into that a little bit? - Yes, that'd be great. - Fantastic stuff. We'll be back in just a little bit with Andy. Andy Brockolist, my brain is not working tonight. Marketing guru, Andy Brockolist, all the way from the UK. One of the founders of Society11, one of the best membership sites and a great bunch of guys I've found. It is what's involved. On Monday night, we'll be back with Andy in just a bit. On the line right now, we have Andy Brockolist, our internet marketing guru.

So Andy, before the break, we should, let's talk. I mean, you know, you're stuck at home now, wherever you are, and you're thinking, shish, maybe I should look at something. Maybe I should start something online. The first thing I think we should say is, it's not very difficult, but it does take work. - Yes, there's, okay, this is where I would start. - Yes. - You need, most people fail because they go, they go in it from the wrong angle. They go, I need to make money. How can I make money online? And that's not the right question. The right question is, what's something I absolutely love? How can I monetize it? And the reason that's important is because when you first set out doing this stuff, if you pick a topic that you aren't really genuinely enthusiastic about, you're gonna get bored of writing blog posts about it and sharing on social media and reading about it and talking about it all the time. So you have to have a passion and a love for the topic. I firmly believe you can take just about any hobby or interest or love of something and you can find a way to monetize it online. So that has to be the starting point. That's where so many people get it wrong. They go, how can I make money?

Oh, I know I'll buy this course on how to make money. And that's not where you wanna start. You wanna go, what do I love? How can I monetize it? And the way that you monetize it is gonna be by using old school marketing techniques of work for years and still work today. And those are the things that you need to put a little bit of time and effort into learning. - Okay, and obviously now this is something that you've done and you've done it over many, many years, but you weren't always in internet marketing, were you? - No, no, not at all. I was a software developer, I've worked in retail. Before, when I left school, my employment history looked really bizarre. I mean, I was, I jumped from job to job to job trying different things out. And I got a little bit of experience every place, and I think that's a big thing in life. You learn, everything's a learning opportunity. And then I just figured out one day that I didn't want to work for anybody else. I didn't like taking orders from other people. I just wanted to do my own thing. So I took all the stuff that I loved and worked out how to monetize it. - Now, give me an example, because whilst, in the internet marketing circles, you're known as the internet marketing guru and you put out a lot of stuff that's designed for internet marketers, but you're in a whole bunch of other niches as well.

Can you give me an example of what other niches you're in? - Yeah, sure. It's largely things I'm interested in. So I've always been a keen magician, conjurer, card tricks especially, mentalism's always been something that fascinates me. And so I have got products out in that niche. I've got a book which is full of entirely original card magic that I invented that's been published somewhere. There is, and then there's other things I do in that niche. - I'm fascinated. - Parro cards and new age stuff I've got. I make money in those niches. - Yeah, I'm fascinated. Can I tell you why though? And I mean, in the time that I've gotten to know you, I've never known this. I was, and unfortunately I am now a lapsed member, but I was a member of the International Brotherhood of Magicians and the Society of American Magicians as well. - I was as well. - I have an absolute passion for it, I love it, love it, love it, love it. - We must talk about that sometimes. - It's amazing how many people in marketing, some of them have an interest in that as well. I know quite a few guys that do what we do, doing this marketing stuff all the time, because I don't want to go and perform. I used to be a performer, but I don't like performing.

I don't, I want to work, I want to just be here doing stuff I love and I'm not a massive people person. I know you have to come across as that online. And I have spoken on stage and I've done all the things, 'cause sometimes you just have to overcome your fears and do them, but those things, as though I overcame my fear and I did them, they weren't things that I decided I really wanted to do. And I thought I do like teaching, so I teach from a computer screen and I make videos and tutorials and I just really teach people what it is and I know what it is I do. - Which is, it's fantastic because I mean, just chatting to you now, I was thinking the other day, I've got a couple of orchids at home and my orchid journey has been a very long and awkward orchid journey because I managed to kill them successfully many, many times and where did I turn when I wanted to know what I was doing wrong and how to do the internet? And choose nuts, there's a bunch of people that are selling things on the internet, advice, booklets, the whole lot. Now my orchids are happy and thriving, thanks to that. Somebody put that together and somebody made money. The other day, my fiance and I were thinking about, let's do something, in fact, just before Christmas, let's do something creative, artsy, crafty, handmade.

And we went online and decided we're going to find out how to make these fizz balls, these bath bombs and all sorts of things. What did we end up doing? We ended up buying books online on how to do it. And again, somebody had a passion for this and they just took that and put it into a form that people would purchase. So it makes sense to me when you say, pick something that you're passionate about. But when people look at it, you go, oh no, it's way too much, there's too much. I don't know where to start, I don't know how to do it. I think when I first started talking to you, I was like, I don't know, I don't understand it. There's funnels and there's this and there's that and there's the next thing. And I have to do auto-responders and then I have, then you were like, just calm down. - Yeah, start do one thing at a time. You can only do one thing at a time. You have to work out what your start point is. So let's say you just, you went, well, let's say you really loved all kids. I know you don't 'cause you just bought books that you could make sure yours didn't die. But let's say that that led into a real passion for all kids and growing them and whatever else. Just to say you love that thing, it doesn't mean you have to be the person photographing all kids or, but you can, if it's a topic you love, you can act very much as a reporter.

And most websites, a lot of websites out there say most, a lot of websites are reporter websites. In other words, they're saying, I'm gonna calculate all the best information on all kids on my website. And they start off by doing that and they'll be pointing to loads of free resources and all the other orchid sites and whatever else. And then they'll do something like maybe they'll put a pay gate up on the site because it becomes popular and now you've built a membership site that you're charging for. Or they put all the, they curate all the best tips they found into one book. That now has value. Okay, all that information is on their website already for free. - Yeah. - But when you curate it into a book that someone's got in one place and so they don't have to search for our website, that becomes worth something. So these things want massive steps. They're just, but you have to know there's money in the niche that you're gonna go into. And there are ways of checking it out. You can look on, there are tools on Google for free that you can go to and you can put in a keyword and it'll tell you how many people are looking for that thing on the internet. - Yeah. - Because obviously if you pick something that no one's looking for and no one's interested in, then you're not gonna make any money.

- This is true. But I mean, the idea then is that something like this, if you're starting something online, do it with a sense of passion, but don't expect to make money in the first, what, three months, six months? - Depends how quick you work. - Uh-huh. - I mean, honestly, I've gone into some niches. Now bear in mind, I've learned the skills now. I learned how to write copy and how to write persuasively. That's really important because if you're going to be building a site and sending out marketing messages, you need to know how to write a marketing message. So obviously I've got the skills now, but when I break into a new niche now, I'm looking very much to try and make money out of it almost immediately. I want to know there's money in the marketplace, so I go out there and I put things out there that will tell me that. But I can be a bit more aggressive now. I can afford to spend money on advertising and things like that. I know not everyone can.

So I move really quick and it is possible to move fast. In fact, I think you've got to. You get bored otherwise if you do something like me. - Yeah, well, there's a saying, fail fast and fail forward. So learn from your mistakes. Just a quick one. If anybody would like to ask Andy any questions, you can SMS us. 41348 is the SMS line. Those SMS is charged at 150. Otherwise you can WhatsApp us. 0848220938. 0848220938. If you're listening to this later in podcast form, we'll put some contact details on there as well so that you can get hold of Society Living or check out Society Living Moneymakers also. Another great group. That's a free one, isn't it? - That's a free one on Facebook, yes. - Yeah, so we'll probably put a link up to the Moneymakers group on Facebook. I haven't stopped by there in a while. How is that going? - Yeah, it's growing actually. And then what's interesting is that people come in there and that group grows and then they see how much, we drop, obviously we drop taste as of what we do in there. So they get to see little bits and then pretty much most people get reached the point where they just go, if they're doing this for free, I wanna know what's in the pay group because it must be amazing.

And then they come and they join that. And of course, as you know, once you join the pay group, very few people drop out. We've got a great retention rate. - Yeah, well, I mean, it's the kind of people that are in there, they're ethical. Everybody's prepared to help. And you're also very, very often, aside from learning. And I learned a lot initially by lurking and I haven't been nearly as active this year as I should be. But I did, and then when I asked the questions, everybody's always happy to help. I think it's well, well worth it. If you're starting a journey and you wanna get into online marketing, then the best thing that you can do is start off, I would reckon, with the Society 11 Moneymakers group on Facebook. You just look Society 11. So it's Society, the number 11 Moneymakers, and then it'll pop up. - Yep, there you go. - Cool, when we come back, we'll be chatting a little bit more with Andy Broklos. I wanna chat to you about some of the things and products that you've just recently launched. And if somebody wants to pop by your website, what they can find there. And we're a good place to start would be. We'll do all of that when we come back. My special guest this evening, Andy Broklos.

That is what's involved. And my special guest on the line with me from the UK is Andy Broklos. I actually just, it struck me now, I'm getting slightly envious, 'cause you guys are heading towards summer now, aren't you? - Starting to. You wouldn't think it if you saw the weather. (laughing) - The UK's got like, I don't know, you get like four seasons in one day there. So you never do know. - Yeah, we do. And it's been like that today. It was really pleasant earlier and now it's chucking it down out there. - Yeah, anyway, we don't even wanna discuss global warming. We've got coronavirus to worry about right now. - Yeah, I don't know anything about that. - I have never, I gotta tell you, I have never seen this radio studio as clean and as disinfected as tonight. I promise you. Yeah, no, there's hand sanitizers all over the place. There's, oh, sure, it's hectic, hectic. People are worried, people are concerned. But anyway, we're talking about making some money and making some money online. One of the great resources for people that are wanting to start off with is your website, because lately, and I really, I don't know what sort of response you've had, but lately you've been posting these reviews of products and whether you would say they're good or bad.

That's now my go-to place. If I see something advertised, I'll go and see what Andy has to say about it. - Yeah, I haven't reviewed so much recently. - Mm-hmm. - And there is a reason for that. And that reason is back to what we were saying at the beginning, where a lot of what's been pumped out into the well-known marketplaces now, it just isn't any good. And I have a very strict policy about trying to, the problem is you can review a product and it's rubbish and that's fine, but you don't make any money by telling people this product's rubbish. I mean, obviously you help them not make the mistake of buying it and you gain their respect because of that, but it's not really that profitable to tell people that's rubbish and that's, so I do try and keep it more positive. And what I've done instead is start just teaching people how to work out for themselves whether a product is telling the truth on the sales page or not. - Okay, but it's still a great resource because you've got some really interesting blog posts there. And of course your own products, I think the first product I ever bought from you was a PDF called The Truth, T-R-E-W-T-H, said in the true pummy way, The Truth. And that was a bit of an eye opener.

- Yes, it was meant to be. I mean, that funny enough was talking about the same thing about the fact the marketplaces were in decline. And I think where we're at now is just a little bit further on down that road. And I sort of spelled out in that book where it was at and where it would head if it didn't clean itself up, but also how you can rise above that and still do very well in the digital information business. - Okay, so let's talk a little bit about some of the stuff that you've just released because I see you released something fairly recently, which you say I'll just briefly read the sales page. It has been released before you've redone it, revamped it. Talk to me about that. - Yeah, well, basically about nine years ago, a guy called Lee McIntyre was doing seminars up and down the country. And he sold access to some of those webinars, either as DVDs or in membership sites or various other ways. And there was one particular set of training that I had watched that really made a huge difference to my online income. Now bear in mind, I'm not saying this is a beginner's product because I was not a beginner when I got it. I had already put products out, I'd got started, I'd put a product out, I'd sold eBooks, I'd sold a couple of other things and just found out.

So I already knew how the technology worked, if you like. What this is is more the theory and real in the trenchy stuff about building continuity programs. And what he taught on that revolutionized my business quite a bit. And years later, I was thinking back and reminiscing about some of the seminal moments in my business life, if you like, courses or books or things that have made the biggest difference. And I remembered that one and I dug it back out and I watched it again and it was brilliant. And I was like, this is still 100% relevant. So I tracked down the rights. The guy that originally created it isn't interested anymore. He's running a far bigger company, went on to far bigger, better things. And I was like, okay, so I tracked down the rights, got the rights and then I spent a little bit of time. I say I spent a little bit of time. I did with a bit of help from my outsourced video guy. We remastered the video footage 'cause it wasn't the best quality. We edited it down a little bit and took out bit, just rubbish we took out. We didn't strip any content and have repackaged it. And that's basically what's on offer there are continuityoverdrive.com. - Continuityoverdrive.com.

So if you are a bit of an experienced market and you'd like to learn something more, as I said, I had a look at the Sales page, looks brilliant. Definitely something I'd like to dive into. So you can go and check that out. Where else though, Andy, would we go as beginners? I mean, we wanna do this. I know that like the truth was for me, it was a great book. What else can I have a look at? That will give me some insight and help me along my path to learning. If I want to do not get into this. - That right. - Number one, there's a lot of good free stuff, as you've already mentioned on my website. People can start there. The Moneymakers group that we mentioned on Facebook is a great group to join because you're not just talking to me then you're talking to other people who are experienced in doing this sort of thing. And we can help point you in the right direction because the thing is doing something for yourself at home isn't gonna be the same for everyone. - Yeah. - So for you, it might be, you know, you've got an interest in a certain topic and it just so happens that because of the nature of the audience, the best way for you to go would be to do, I don't know, a membership site, a blog with a paygate on it.

Somebody else, it might be better just to bring out a book or a video or, you know, so everyone's different. And so you need to work out exactly what it is you know, what it is you love and how you're gonna disseminate that information and how to monetize it. That's the first things you've got to figure out. Once you've got a plan in your head, then it's all action. - Okay, another thing that amazed me is the other day I saw you guys talking about it and I took one look at it and I went, nah, that's not for me. But Kindle, these Kindle, what do they call them? The short books? - Short reads, Kindle short reads. - Kindle short reads. I mean, a lot of people are seeming to do that at the moment. I've seen a couple of guys in the group doing it and they seem to be doing very well. - There's two ways of making money on Amazon Kindle as an author. One is be a really good author and write a really good book and, you know, and it will get picked up and noticed. And I mean, you have to do a little bit of marketing behind it, but it will do well. That's obviously the traditional way. There are some clever people that have figured out semi-automatic ways. I wouldn't say to game the system, but to put the kind of content people are looking for at their fingertips and then offer it at a low price as a 99T or a 299 Kindle book.

And let's face it, when we're searching online for information, we get impatient. Amazon ranks really well on Google. So if people search in Google, they also get Amazon ads. A lot of people search on Amazon. Up come the book titles. And if you've got two or three titles in that topic and yours are getting listed by the right keywords, then you're likely to make some sales, even if they're not necessarily the most in-depth books on the market. - So basically it's, and again, it goes down to what you're passionate, goes down to what you're passionate about and then collating that information and putting it out there, Kindle just being one platform. - Right, absolutely. But the reason we were talking about Kindle so much was because we, Kurt and I do what we often do. We work out ways of automating things. Because if you've got an idea and you go, well, that can make money, there always comes a point where you've got to scale up. And if you are a writer and you're gonna write everything yourself, you're just gonna, you're limited by your output capacity. If you outsource to people, you're now only limited by how many outsources you can find. If you can work out a way of automating a process with a computer, now you're like, well, it's pretty much not costing me anything, apart from a bit of electricity and maybe some software that I needed.

And that's just getting on on its own now. And that's where we sort of get passive income systems. And the Kindle creator was something that sort of fell down there. You had to choose a niche. You had to go and design a cover. You had to do a couple of things. But it pulled all the content together for you. And we just found a way of automating it, which is why we were talking about it as much as we were in the membership site. - Okay, but again, one of those things where you get to learn about that kind of stuff, if you are part of Society 11, what is the membership going for at the moment? - I think you can get 3711 at the minute. - 3711 has to have the 11 in there, very important. - We put the 11 in for re, it was a good idea. Someone said to us, oh, you know what you should do? You should make your subscription. I can't remember who told us this, it was great, didn't they? Make your subscription an odd amount because everyone's selling membership for $27, $37, $47. When they freak out about how much money they got going out and they're going to PayPal, when they bring up the cancellation thing, people accidentally cancel the wrong programs because they just look and go, oh, 47, that'll be the one.

And so to stand out, we made our price with an 11 in it always. And then that way, if people go in and start counting, oh, no, that's Society 11, and it has definitely makes a difference to retention. So it's a regular idea, I mean, obviously don't do 11, we're doing that, but do whatever, do an odd amount on a recurring membership. - Well, if you are sort of within the sound of our voices in whatever format you're listening to this, it is well worth investing in Society 11, getting a membership there. You can look it up, there's a Facebook group, the Society 11 website, there's links from your site as well, isn't there? - Yes, join society11.com. I tell everyone about Society 11 because it genuinely is, Kurt and I started it because we wanted a place for like-minded ethical marketers to come and learn and not get burnt. And that's why we set it up and that's why I'm deeply passionate about the group. We got people from all different skill levels in there. You will find top marketers in there. You'd be surprised at some of the people that are inside Society 11.

So it's something I'm passionate about, so I tell everyone about it.

It's something that myself and Kurt are hugely proud of because it really did meet the goal that we started. The goal was never about, can we make a lot of money at Society 11? The goal really was, can we bring together like-minded ethical marketers and give them the best stuff all in one place? And that was the aim and that's what I believe we've done. - And the membership gives you, the membership gives you access to Society 11. So it's to the website, there's a members area, there's some really cool things in the members area. - It gets back to screening tools and then you get sort of the live support and things of a Facebook group. You can ask questions, no questions, too stupid or whatever. We do lives in there as well. Where people can ask us anything on camera, you don't have to do that. You can just type a message to us in the group. So it's generally, I think, I mean, part of our mission statement for Society 11 is to make it the best value membership site for internet marketers. And again, I believe we've done that, so. - Unquestionably. I mean, the Friday, well, for us, it's sort of Friday, late afternoon, early evening sometimes, but it's the what you call an AMA and ask me anything.

- Those are incredibly informative. There's something I haven't had a chance to attend yet, which you guys have as well. I don't know if that's part of Society 11, the IMPUB. - Yeah, the IMPUB's open to anyone that wants to turn up on a Friday night. It's our wind down, but we give members of Society 11 priority on the seats. We've only got, there's only 12 seats for the IMPUB. - Ah, so you can check it out. It looks like a bunch of fun. - As I said, little sort of past my bedtime, really. So I haven't managed to join one of those yet. But we're sort of running out of time. Andy, thank you so much for chatting to us tonight. We look forward to doing this again now on a more regular basis, now that we've managed to kick it off. And we'll continue to talk internet marketing, how to make some money online, what people need to do. Check it out, Society 11 on Facebook. Otherwise, Society 11 Money Makers Group. If you want any more information, andybrocklehurst.com. I'll post all of that in the podcast as well. Andy, thank you so much. Enjoy your evening in a cold and rainy UK. - I will do. It's good talking to you. It always is, I loved it. - Good, chat to you again soon. Cheers, bye-bye.

There we go, that's Andy Brocklehurst on the line with us. Always good to have a chat to him. He has got some brilliant advice. So, you know, well worth it, well, well worth it.